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  • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    I brought up church attendance; Sunday is called the most segregated day in America.
    Except maybe in Colleges every day:

    Self segregation on college campuses:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=self...hrome&ie=UTF-8
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Carpetbaggers refer specifically to white Northerners coming south to capitalize on the chaos during Reconstruction - you're nearly fifty years off.

      FYI: the dialect in question originated in the North and is not unique to the South.
      hello, i was wondering if you could share your sources for this, because this wikipedia page suggests that the dialect has southern origins, or is rooted in older creole and african origins. thank you.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...acular_English

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Except maybe in Colleges every day:

        Self segregation on college campuses:

        https://www.google.com/search?q=self...hrome&ie=UTF-8
        00000000000000ab000-00aaad.jpg

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Carpetbaggers refer specifically to white Northerners coming south to capitalize on the chaos during Reconstruction - you're nearly fifty years off.

          FYI: the dialect in question originated in the North and is not unique to the South.
          Carpetbagger is a pejorative term usually applied to persons; I stretched it a bit to apply it to the dialect. The carpetbagger originated in the north and then moved south. Quite like your theory of the northern source formthe dialect.

          The term is still current, it has evolved, applied to persons carrying liberal ideas at odds with southern heritage.
          Last edited by simplicio; 01-10-2020, 08:31 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Right - except the fantasy about health care workers moving into cities for unknown reasons - you got a real source for that? Never heard of it - and I'm decently versed in Southern history - that kind of urbanization comes later than integration - trails it a good decade if you date from the inception. But hospitals did integrate fairly early - so where did this motility come from?

            Yep - broken clock. And the First Amendment. Plessy is still a stupid decision and appealing to its reference to freedom of association doesn't disprove the point - quite the opposite.
            Did you even bother to read the article? Here is an article which goes more in depth: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/fu...thaff.24.2.317

            The auditors most often were not health care workers, which generated resentment from the hospital administrators. The auditors were selected for their commitment to civil rights, not knowledge of hospitals and health care. The history is worth looking at because how swiftly it proceeded, happening with little opposition or fanfare, in addition to its shortfalls.

            The courts eventually decided that the private hospital served a public function.

            Your appeal to the first amendment is yours. Plessy may have been a stupid decision, which raises the question of whether the arguments used to justify it are stupid.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              Did you even bother to read the article? Here is an article which goes more in depth: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/fu...thaff.24.2.317

              The auditors most often were not health care workers, which generated resentment from the hospital administrators. The auditors were selected for their commitment to civil rights, not knowledge of hospitals and health care. The history is worth looking at because how swiftly it proceeded, happening with little opposition or fanfare, in addition to its shortfalls.

              The courts eventually decided that the private hospital served a public function.

              Your appeal to the first amendment is yours. Plessy may have been a stupid decision, which raises the question of whether the arguments used to justify it are stupid.
              I'll take a look.

              You do know where FoA comes from, right? It's the legal concept you stated (correctly, I assume) appears in Plessy (okay, I remember Plessy using FoA as part of its basis so I more than assume you're correct). You keep trying to throw out the First Amendment - but the reasoning you keep bringing up is based directly on it!

              The problem with Plessy is it (stupidly) constructs the fiction that because the First guarantees FoA it follows that the states can legislate FoA - which is nuts. It turns FoA on its head, no longer a protection FROM government but a mandate OF government. Then it goes on to blow out the Fourteenth Amendment with its famous - and moronic - 'separate but equal'. Do you really think that activist Court honestly believed that states could mandate 'equal' facilities? Of course not - any ten year old knew better. Jim Crow laws would mandate the equality they could not enforce even if they had wanted to - so the law on the books never resembled reality.

              There's just enough valid reasoning in Plessy that the Court could claim constitutional validity, but the fix was in and everyone knew it.
              Last edited by Teallaura; 01-10-2020, 06:19 PM.
              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

              Quill Sword

              Comment


              • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                hello, i was wondering if you could share your sources for this, because this wikipedia page suggests that the dialect has southern origins, or is rooted in older creole and african origins. thank you.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...acular_English
                The best was a PBS documentary - they included historic recordings that are incredible. LoC has some stuff as well - and the dispora of the early 20th Century is well documented.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  I'll take a look.

                  You do know where FoA comes from, right? It's the legal concept you stated (correctly, I assume) appears in Plessy (okay, I remember Plessy using FoA as part of its basis so I more than assume you're correct). You keep trying to throw out the First Amendment - but the reasoning you keep bringing up is based directly on it!

                  The problem with Plessy is it (stupidly) constructs the fiction that because the First guarantees FoA it follows that the states can legislate FoA - which is nuts. It turns FoA on its head, no longer a protection FROM government but a mandate OF government. Then it goes on to blow out the Fourteenth Amendment with its famous - and moronic - 'separate but equal'. Do you really think that activist Court honestly believed that states could mandate 'equal' facilities? Of course not - any ten year old knew better. Jim Crow laws would mandate the equality they could not enforce even if they had wanted to - so the law on the books never resembled reality.

                  There's just enough valid reasoning in Plessy that the Court could claim constitutional validity, but the fix was in and everyone knew it.
                  I am assuming that FoA refers to freedom of assembly here. Read the various defenses for Plessy, the examples I presented also draw in other legal principles. The distinctions between interstate and intrastate commerce involve government interference in how people assemble with the view on the state police power used to enforce any separation. The example of church separation (which usually draws chest thumping of "not my church") deals with segregation in the private sphere.

                  Plessy did not make law, so to speak, but recognized the rights of states to exercise its police power. The court limited the fourteenth amendment to merely the public sphere, allowing the private sphere's social norms to be decided locally and enforced locally. The key idea of Plessy was enforced segregation did not imply inferiority.

                  One irony is that Plessy's separate but equal doctrine became the law of the land but appeared nowhere in any state law, shutting off the legal recourse of using state courts to strike down unjust laws wrt civil rights. It set up the need for judicial activism from the bench.

                  Plessy was not a case of judicial activism as you stated earlier (I think in another thread), rather it was good law using the principles of narrow constitutional interpretation.

                  Plessy relied on the test case, the artificial orchestration of events to force a show down in the courts. Plessy did not really want to go anywhere, his goal was to defy the law, purposefully break the law. He was chosen for his racial ambiguity, he was octaroon.

                  Plessy relied on the reasoning that inferiority is not implied through any sorting of races.

                  Each paragraph addresses a reason Plessy was justified by its supporters, reasons which still are discussed and presented today.
                  Last edited by simplicio; 01-11-2020, 03:16 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by OingoBoingo View Post
                    hello, i was wondering if you could share your sources for this, because this wikipedia page suggests that the dialect has southern origins, or is rooted in older creole and african origins. thank you.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...acular_English
                    Those are the competing theories.

                    Source: Origin stories of Ebonics or AAVE


                    Defining AAVE as either a dialect of English, or a separate language altogether, depends on how you believe it began.

                    If you call it a dialect, you support the Anglicist Hypothesis that African slaves on Southern plantations acquired English from their British owners. This hypothesis was the widely held opinion of how AAVE evolved until the 1960s.

                    If you say it’s a language, though, you hold the Creolist Hypothesis view, that AAVE originated from a creole spoken on Southern plantations before the Civil War. A creole is a full language that develops from a pidgin, a super simple language created between two groups who need to communicate but don’t have a language in common. Linguists of this view say AAVE arose from a creole in West Africa that slaves already spoke before coming to the US.

                    Scholars still argue about what AAVE should be called, leaning one way or another at different times. In fact, in 1996 the school board in Oakland, California proactively, and unanimously, believed the Creolist view. After three hours of hearing the arguments, the board revised literature to explicitly call AAVE a distinct language from SAE, recognizing it as the native language of around 30,000 African-American students within the school district. Hmm, is it just us, or is that the sweet taste of victory for diversity?

                    The beginning of the study of AAVE

                    Dr. William Labov, creolist, sociolinguist, and professor at University of Pennsylvania, has spent his career studying linguistic change, starting with AAVE. It began in Manhattan, in a 1962 study that had him lurking through department stores across town, anonymously scribbling salespeople’s answers to his questions once he was out of their view. Oh, the things we do for science.

                    It was a landmark study, paving the way for further work on AAVE (and other minority dialects) in the US. The plan: Ask each salesperson the same question and listen for the R in their reply. Then, ask them to repeat the answer to record the same phrase when they say it emphatically. The answer to the question: “Fourth Floor.”

                    In that study he found something odd. AAVE is a nonrhotic dialect, meaning the R isn’t pronounced (similar to Southern US dialects or British English). But, in the department store with more AAVE speakers, the number of Rs in emphatic speech rose to 18% (from 5% in casual speech). Labov concluded that at least some AAVE speakers understood emphatic speech to be rhotic (with the R pronounced), even though casual speech was nonrhotic.

                    What Labov found then, and what linguists see time and time again, is that context and environment affect speech. For AAVE speakers, it could be even more complex, because some also speak SAE and switch (or code-switch) between them, depending on the situation.

                    Going back to Labov, we could also realistically say the salespeople pronounced the R in emphatic speech when they realized the person asking was white. They could have thought Labov, a white man, didn’t understand the AAVE dialect, and then switched to SAE for emphasis.

                    AAVE grammar and literature

                    It’s hard to separate stress in AAVE from the grammar, the two are so linked. Scholars like Toni Morrison, writer and winner of the Nobel Prize in literature, have spoken of five present tenses in AAVE. In reality it’s probably more than that, if you factor in stress. See our list of the many present-tense variations below (many also feature the mighty-fine be copula or linking verb). All tenses mean something slightly different, and some can’t be translated into SAE so easily.

                    • Final -s deletion: He work-∅. | He works.
                    • Copula deletion: He ∅ workin’. | He is working at this moment.
                    • Habitual “be”: He be workin’. | He is usually working.
                    • “Been” (always unstressed): He been workin’. | He has been working.
                    • BIN (always stressed): He BIN workin’. | He is working and has been for a long time.
                    • Finna: He finna work. | He is about to work.


                    The use of negatives in AAVE is also highly evolved. In Standard English two negatives equal a positive: I didn’t not see it means “I saw it.”

                    In AAVE, like in math, two negatives equal a negative. And, sometimes negation can be used for emphasis to mean a bigger, bolder No. It’s also like several other languages in that way, including French, Spanish, Polish, Persian, Middle English … you get the idea. The linguistic term is multiple negation, and languages that allow it are said to have negative concord. See some examples below, taken from Toni Morrison’s beautiful novel Sula. Central to it are themes explored in other novels by and about black people: home and identity, race, class, and self-evolution.
                    • “What you mean you didn’t mean nothing by it?”
                    • “Don’t you say hello to nobody when you ain’t seen them for ten years?”
                    • “Well, don’t let your mouth start nothing that your ass can’t stand.”
                    • “Ain’t no woman got no business floatin’ around without no man.”


                    AAVE phonology and hip-hop

                    Stress is part of phonology, which is really rich in AAVE. In listening to music and interviews with some of the most culturally influential artists in music today, artists like Jay-Z, Kanye West, the Wu-Tang Clan, and Nas, there are a few features that stand out:
                    • Consonant clusters simplify: perfek, projek, tes, wes, lef, han, des (instead of “perfect,” “project,” “test,” “west,” “left,” “hand,” and “desk”)
                    • The [th] sound changes to [f], [v], [t] or [d]: baf, movuh, fink, wit, and dis (for “bath,” “mother,” “think,” “with” and “this”)
                    • Consonant clusters invert: poest and aks (instead of “poets” and “ask”) (this transposition of sounds is a form of what linguists call metathesis)


                    Hip-hop has done a lot to move our culture forward. Words and phrases that originate in hip-hop get siphoned into mainstream culture so quickly, speakers are constantly modifying and inventing vocabulary to keep representing Black culture accurately. But, hip-hop has always dealt with themes other genres shy away from, like race and racism, class, hierarchy, economic equality, financial freedom—to name only a few. For that, we all owe it thanks.


                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      I am assuming that FoA refers to freedom of assembly here.
                      Thanks. For the life of me I couldn't figure it out.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Those are the competing theories.

                        Source: Origin stories of Ebonics or AAVE


                        Defining AAVE as either a dialect of English, or a separate language altogether, depends on how you believe it began.

                        If you call it a dialect, you support the Anglicist Hypothesis that African slaves on Southern plantations acquired English from their British owners. This hypothesis was the widely held opinion of how AAVE evolved until the 1960s.

                        If you say itÂ’s a language, though, you hold the Creolist Hypothesis view, that AAVE originated from a creole spoken on Southern plantations before the Civil War. A creole is a full language that develops from a pidgin, a super simple language created between two groups who need to communicate but donÂ’t have a language in common. Linguists of this view say AAVE arose from a creole in West Africa that slaves already spoke before coming to the US.

                        Scholars still argue about what AAVE should be called, leaning one way or another at different times. In fact, in 1996 the school board in Oakland, California proactively, and unanimously, believed the Creolist view. After three hours of hearing the arguments, the board revised literature to explicitly call AAVE a distinct language from SAE, recognizing it as the native language of around 30,000 African-American students within the school district. Hmm, is it just us, or is that the sweet taste of victory for diversity?

                        The beginning of the study of AAVE

                        Dr. William Labov, creolist, sociolinguist, and professor at University of Pennsylvania, has spent his career studying linguistic change, starting with AAVE. It began in Manhattan, in a 1962 study that had him lurking through department stores across town, anonymously scribbling salespeopleÂ’s answers to his questions once he was out of their view. Oh, the things we do for science.

                        It was a landmark study, paving the way for further work on AAVE (and other minority dialects) in the US. The plan: Ask each salesperson the same question and listen for the R in their reply. Then, ask them to repeat the answer to record the same phrase when they say it emphatically. The answer to the question: “Fourth Floor.”

                        In that study he found something odd. AAVE is a nonrhotic dialect, meaning the R isnÂ’t pronounced (similar to Southern US dialects or British English). But, in the department store with more AAVE speakers, the number of Rs in emphatic speech rose to 18% (from 5% in casual speech). Labov concluded that at least some AAVE speakers understood emphatic speech to be rhotic (with the R pronounced), even though casual speech was nonrhotic.

                        What Labov found then, and what linguists see time and time again, is that context and environment affect speech. For AAVE speakers, it could be even more complex, because some also speak SAE and switch (or code-switch) between them, depending on the situation.

                        Going back to Labov, we could also realistically say the salespeople pronounced the R in emphatic speech when they realized the person asking was white. They could have thought Labov, a white man, didnÂ’t understand the AAVE dialect, and then switched to SAE for emphasis.

                        AAVE grammar and literature

                        ItÂ’s hard to separate stress in AAVE from the grammar, the two are so linked. Scholars like Toni Morrison, writer and winner of the Nobel Prize in literature, have spoken of five present tenses in AAVE. In reality itÂ’s probably more than that, if you factor in stress. See our list of the many present-tense variations below (many also feature the mighty-fine be copula or linking verb). All tenses mean something slightly different, and some canÂ’t be translated into SAE so easily.

                        • Final -s deletion: He work-∅. | He works.
                        • Copula deletion: He ∅ workinÂ’. | He is working at this moment.
                        • Habitual “be”: He be workinÂ’. | He is usually working.
                        • “Been” (always unstressed): He been workinÂ’. | He has been working.
                        • BIN (always stressed): He BIN workinÂ’. | He is working and has been for a long time.
                        • Finna: He finna work. | He is about to work.


                        The use of negatives in AAVE is also highly evolved. In Standard English two negatives equal a positive: I didn’t not see it means “I saw it.”

                        In AAVE, like in math, two negatives equal a negative. And, sometimes negation can be used for emphasis to mean a bigger, bolder No. ItÂ’s also like several other languages in that way, including French, Spanish, Polish, Persian, Middle English Â… you get the idea. The linguistic term is multiple negation, and languages that allow it are said to have negative concord. See some examples below, taken from Toni MorrisonÂ’s beautiful novel Sula. Central to it are themes explored in other novels by and about black people: home and identity, race, class, and self-evolution.
                        • “What you mean you didnÂ’t mean nothing by it?”
                        • “DonÂ’t you say hello to nobody when you ainÂ’t seen them for ten years?”
                        • “Well, donÂ’t let your mouth start nothing that your ass canÂ’t stand.”
                        • “AinÂ’t no woman got no business floatinÂ’ around without no man.”


                        AAVE phonology and hip-hop

                        Stress is part of phonology, which is really rich in AAVE. In listening to music and interviews with some of the most culturally influential artists in music today, artists like Jay-Z, Kanye West, the Wu-Tang Clan, and Nas, there are a few features that stand out:
                        • Consonant clusters simplify: perfek, projek, tes, wes, lef, han, des (instead of “perfect,” “project,” “test,” “west,” “left,” “hand,” and “desk”)
                        • The [th] sound changes to [f], [v], [t] or [d]: baf, movuh, fink, wit, and dis (for “bath,” “mother,” “think,” “with” and “this”)
                        • Consonant clusters invert: poest and aks (instead of “poets” and “ask”) (this transposition of sounds is a form of what linguists call metathesis)


                        Hip-hop has done a lot to move our culture forward. Words and phrases that originate in hip-hop get siphoned into mainstream culture so quickly, speakers are constantly modifying and inventing vocabulary to keep representing Black culture accurately. But, hip-hop has always dealt with themes other genres shy away from, like race and racism, class, hierarchy, economic equality, financial freedom—to name only a few. For that, we all owe it thanks.


                        Source

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        I don't see any theory about the origin being a result of northern interaction or synthesis. I have read theories which posit the de facto recognition of formal informal language distinctions which occur in all cultures and subcultures. (which sometimes even erases local accents or distinct pronunciations). I don't know how strong those theories really are, other than they seem credible. I am reluctant to levy a judgement, since my understanding is based on the naïve understanding of linguistics.

                        I did find one discussion which included the idea of a synthesis, but it was an discussion forum amd somewhat problematic.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          I don't see any theory about the origin being a result of northern interaction or synthesis. I have read theories which posit the de facto recognition of formal informal language distinctions which occur in all cultures and subcultures. (which sometimes even erases local accents or distinct pronunciations). I don't know how strong those theories really are, other than they seem credible. I am reluctant to levy a judgement, since my understanding is based on the naïve understanding of linguistics.

                          I did find one discussion which included the idea of a synthesis, but it was an discussion forum amd somewhat problematic.
                          Thanks to TV and movies regional accents and dialects are a lot less prevalent and pronounced in the U.S. than they were 50 years ago.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Thanks to TV and movies regional accents and dialects are a lot less prevalent and pronounced in the U.S. than they were 50 years ago.
                            Probably true. At one time, the idealized accent was from the Midwest, news anchors and announcers were preferred who had the Midwest twang.

                            At one time, it was thought that mass communication would stabilize the language, bit it does not, some even suspect that rate of change might be increasing. Manynwere surprised how quickly Hebrew has evolved

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                              Probably true. At one time, the idealized accent was from the Midwest, news anchors and announcers were preferred who had the Midwest twang.
                              It's true even with "Ebonics." It is incredibly rare today to run into the really thick nearly unintelligible version of it today that used to be disparagingly called "mushmouth." And I should note that was what other blacks would call it as can be seen as recently as the 70s on the Bill Cosby Show with a character named "Mushmouth" (where it was ramped up many fold to incomprehensible for effect).

                              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                              At one time, it was thought that mass communication would stabilize the language, bit it does not, some even suspect that rate of change might be increasing. Manynwere surprised how quickly Hebrew has evolved
                              Languages tend to evolve.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                                Languages tend to evolve.
                                To elaborate, new words are always being coined (often to describe something that wasn't around or prevalent earlier), old ones become archaic (ask Biden about "Malarkey") and slang gets mainstreamed.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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