Little Greta comes clean

[Teallaura]

I'm going to let you speak for the group. Does the word lynch really not have a racial implication (but not requirement) in the United States? If you say it doesn't then I'll admit I totally blew this one (more than I already admitted to) and we can move on.

Lynching has a history going back to the revolutionary war. There's some research indicating more whites than blacks were lynched historically. That's plausible since lynching was rather more rare in the post-antebellum South than in the same period of the West.

But it's not true of the early 20th Century - and certainly not what Billie Holliday sang about. But that's largely because Midwestern whites were mostly shooting each other or again, the numbers wouldn't favor the assumption.

There were isolated incidents into the 1950's but the historic racially motivated lynchings ended in the 1920's. So why would a 21st Century person necessarily be referring to the travesties of a century ago just because the person is or is not black?

[Teallaura]

Okay, well, I guess I should have used the proper PC term "people of color" lest I trigger a meltdown and am accused of being a racist against my own race. So now the world can keep spinning I guess.

Irrelevant comment alert: Every time I hear that term I visualize people colored with crayon by a four year old. Vivid brilliant colors and optional lines...

[Teallaura]

Two examples: Redlining and segregated hospitals. I believe that those polices were mostly implemented by men who did see the inherent racism in those policies, and often did not have any racist intent.

Added in edit: Was the Plessy decision really racist? Many have argued that it was not. And one example is they way Christians worship, very much separate and equal.

Plessy was political - and really, really stupid. That happens with political activist decisions. If memory serves, Plessy was built on the 14th, not the 1st. You're conflating Freedom of Association with separate but equal (which it wasn't).

Now, I grant this is born of personal anecdote, but I wonder still if the modern ambulance business didn't help undermine sbe. Drivers were most often white and seldom sympathetic to hospitals that turned away critically ill patients. I suspect that as whites were brought face to face with the reality of sbe, they became far less supportive. Their views of blacks didn't really change - they just rejected the inherent injustice.

Which is why the CRM worked in the Fifties where it had failed for decades before - TV brought the reality into the living room.

[Teallaura]

Do you really not know that segregation was accepted in the north? There were relatively few of the actual statutes enforcing segregation. But segregation was institutionalized, forming the structure or fabric of society. Banking policies, hospital administration, employment practices, educational practices, all served to achieve the effective segregation of the races.

It was also more extreme. Despite minstral imitations of Gullah, most blacks prior to the 1930's spoke excellent English (many former slaves being better than most modern school kids in English fluency). After the dispora of the 1920's and 1930's that changed. In the South even uneducated blacks were in constant contact with well educated whites but in the North, they were so isolated from all other races that their English skills degraded in less than 1 generation. That dialect was then transferred back to the South as blacks moved back following the Great Depression and WWII.

And yeah, there is evidence to back that up.

[JimL]

It was also more extreme. Despite minstral imitations of Gullah, most blacks prior to the 1930's spoke excellent English (many former slaves being better than most modern school kids in English fluency). After the dispora of the 1920's and 1930's that changed. In the South even uneducated blacks were in constant contact with well educated whites but in the North, they were so isolated from all other races that their English skills degraded in less than 1 generation. That dialect was then transferred back to the South as blacks moved back following the Great Depression and WWII.

And yeah, there is evidence to back that up.

Wow, that's some pretty good spin there, Tea, not to mention a hint of unintended racism.

[Teallaura]

Wow, that's some pretty good spin there, Tea, not to mention a hint of unintended racism.

Yeah, because saying a guy that never went to school a day in his life spoke English better than you do is soooo racist. Or is it that the reality that segregation in the North was far more severe than the legal stupidity in the South is a little tooo close to home?

The history and the LITERAL RECORDINGS are well documented. The whole Gone with the Wind version of 'ebonics' is a Yankee fiction. And yes, the slavery documentation efforts do sometimes attempt to reproduce speech but the interviews were done after the first dispora.

[simplicio]

Plessy was political - and really, really stupid. That happens with political activist decisions. If memory serves, Plessy was built on the 14th, not the 1st. You're conflating Freedom of Association with separate but equal (which it wasn't).

Now, I grant this is born of personal anecdote, but I wonder still if the modern ambulance business didn't help undermine sbe. Drivers were most often white and seldom sympathetic to hospitals that turned away critically ill patients. I suspect that as whites were brought face to face with the reality of sbe, they became far less supportive. Their views of blacks didn't really change - they just rejected the inherent injustice.

Which is why the CRM worked in the Fifties where it had failed for decades before - TV brought the reality into the living room.

You really are a child of the south, aren't you?

I was responding To a comment by marvel which stated that if a policy does not have a racist intent, it is not a racist policy. Plessy, and the two examples are an example.

I did not bring up the first amendment, I brought up church attendance; Sunday is called the most segregated day in America. Plessy is summed up by the phrase "separate but equal". Church attendance is separate, and one of the hardest for Christians to explain adequately.

Plessy was not stupid, it contains a grain of reasonableness, which is why its arguments in support exist today. It is not directly discriminatory.

The segregation in hospitals was strongly defended in every area which had segregated hospitals. It was the prospect of withholding federal Medicare funds which forced the integration of health care. The Hill Burton Act (federal funds for hospital buildings) started out as a vehicle for promoting segregated care, subsequent changes to the law allowed its use to enforce integration.

Unskilled federal auditors (largely untrained in health care) flooding the cities and threatening to with hold funds forced integration.

Recognition of injustices could not overcome the institutionalized racism; Howard Gantt noted that appealing to the morality of whites was insufficient, but that the appeal of law and order was. The federal law of the land was integration. And sometimes the law needed federal troops to force it on the citizens, as at Little Rock And Ole Miss.

[simplicio]

It was also more extreme. Despite minstral imitations of Gullah, most blacks prior to the 1930's spoke excellent English (many former slaves being better than most modern school kids in English fluency). After the dispora of the 1920's and 1930's that changed. In the South even uneducated blacks were in constant contact with well educated whites but in the North, they were so isolated from all other races that their English skills degraded in less than 1 generation. That dialect was then transferred back to the South as blacks moved back following the Great Depression and WWII.

And yeah, there is evidence to back that up.

And just what evidence is there?

That sure sounds like something coming off a racist site!

Southern dialect among black Americans was a carpet bagged introduction? Seriously?

[Teallaura]

You really are a child of the south, aren't you?

You bet.

I was responding To a comment by marvel which stated that if a policy does not have a racist intent, it is not a racist policy. Plessy, and the two examples are an example.

Use tags.

I did not bring up the first amendment, I brought up church attendance; Sunday is called the most segregated day in America. Plessy is summed up by the phrase "separate but equal". Church attendance is separate, and one of the hardest for Christians to explain adequately.

You not knowing where the law stems from is not an issue.

Church attendance is easy - blacks, like any newcomer, are unsure of coming to a white church unless uinvited. Ditto whites. Once that barrier is crossed, the problem of style crops up. Whites are used to much shorter services (and a number of our black members join for exactly this reason) so they rarely seek membership in black churches even when they feel welcome to do so. Making blacks feel welcome to join white services is also a barrier.

But theb biggest is people gravitate to the kinds of churches and services they are used to. It's changing - albeit slowly.

Plessy was not stupid, it contains a grain of reasonableness, which is why its arguments in support exist today. It is not directly discriminatory.

Yes, it was. It invented a legal fiction to satisfy a political problem.

Broken clocks are still broken.

The segregation in hospitals was strongly defended in every area which had segregated hospitals. It was the prospect of withholding federal Medicare funds which forced the integration of health care. The Hill Burton Act (federal funds for hospital buildings) started out as a vehicle for promoting segregated care, subsequent changes to the law allowed its use to enforce integration.

Up until they weren't.

Unskilled federal auditors (largely untrained in health care) flooding the cities and threatening to with hold funds forced integration.

On what planet?

Recognition of injustices could not overcome the institutionalized racism; Howard Gantt noted that appealing to the morality of whites was insufficient, but that the appeal of law and order was. The federal law of the land was integration. And sometimes the law needed federal troops to force it on the citizens, as at Little Rock And Ole Miss.

Passing the CRA needed those racist whites to support it. Only idiots assume that racism was only in the South.

[Teallaura]

And just what evidence is there?

That sure sounds like something coming off a racist site!

Southern dialect among black Americans was a carpet bagged introduction? Seriously?

PBS is racist now? Whoda thunk it?



Also, not carpetbagged - don't even know when the dispora occured, do you?

Edit: Also when did the Library of Congress become racist?

[simplicio]

PBS is racist now? Whoda thunk it?



Also, not carpetbagged - don't even know when the dispora occured, do you?

Edit: Also when did the Library of Congress become racist?

You made the claim that the dialect was an introduction from the north, affecting southern culture. Hence the term "carpetbag".

[simplicio]

You bet.
Use tags.
You not knowing where the law stems from is not an issue.

Church attendance is easy - blacks, like any newcomer, are unsure of coming to a white church unless uinvited. Ditto whites. Once that barrier is crossed, the problem of style crops up. Whites are used to much shorter services (and a number of our black members join for exactly this reason) so they rarely seek membership in black churches even when they feel welcome to do so. Making blacks feel welcome to join white services is also a barrier.

But theb biggest is people gravitate to the kinds of churches and services they are used to. It's changing - albeit slowly.
Yes, it was. It invented a legal fiction to satisfy a political problem.

Broken clocks are still broken.

Up until they weren't.
On what planet?
Passing the CRA needed those racist whites to support it. Only idiots assume that racism was only in the South.

Welcome to planet earth and reality.

The integration of the hospital system is well documented, it is studied for the differences in strategy and outcomes from other civil rights issues. It proceeded quickly, quietly, and peacefully. Here is a very brief summary: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...cy-of-medicare

Plessy lawsuit which lead to the supreme court case attempted to force private enterprises (Railroads) to not discriminate. Should bakers be forced to either supply cakes or ne barred from supplying cakes? That is just one example of the underlying arguments surviving to the present.

[Teallaura]

You made the claim that the dialect was an introduction from the north, affecting southern culture. Hence the term "carpetbag".

Carpetbaggers refer specifically to white Northerners coming south to capitalize on the chaos during Reconstruction - you're nearly fifty years off.

FYI: the dialect in question originated in the North and is not unique to the South.

[Teallaura]

Welcome to planet earth and reality.

The integration of the hospital system is well documented, it is studied for the differences in strategy and outcomes from other civil rights issues. It proceeded quickly, quietly, and peacefully. Here is a very brief summary: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...cy-of-medicare

Plessy lawsuit which lead to the supreme court case attempted to force private enterprises (Railroads) to not discriminate. Should bakers be forced to either supply cakes or ne barred from supplying cakes? That is just one example of the underlying arguments surviving to the present.

Right - except the fantasy about health care workers moving into cities for unknown reasons - you got a real source for that? Never heard of it - and I'm decently versed in Southern history - that kind of urbanization comes later than integration - trails it a good decade if you date from the inception. But hospitals did integrate fairly early - so where did this motility come from?

Yep - broken clock. And the First Amendment. Plessy is still a stupid decision and appealing to its reference to freedom of association doesn't disprove the point - quite the opposite.

[simplicio]

I'm going to let you speak for the group. Does the word lynch really not have a racial implication (but not requirement) in the United States? If you say it doesn't then I'll admit I totally blew this one (more than I already admitted to) and we can move on.

Yes, lynching does have non racial connotations, the western movies did use the vigilante justice (and injustice) as a story device, and has become part of the romance of the west. But the movie industry seldom broached the subject of the lynching of blacks to enforce the social norms. And even less well known is the number of Mexicans who were lynched. More Mexicans were lynched in the southwest than African Americans in the south.

Lynching refers to circumventing the justice system, and with whites it has entered the popular conscience as meting out justice. But its connotation with respect to blacks (or Mexicans) it carries the connotations associated with enforcing white supremacy.

I doubt that many Americans are unaware of its odious connotations.