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The Ukraine scandal timeline Democrats... don’t want America to see

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Is it really unfair? truly now.

    But after all, there is a clear double standard in effect. Why wouldn't it have been unfair of me to do that?
    Have you ever seen her refuse such a request? No. THAT is why it is unfair to assume she would do so. Please be courteous and give her the benefit of the doubt until she demonstrates otherwise.
    Have a happy thanksgiving OBP.

    You too, Jim. I hope you will be able to spend it with family, and pray that your day is not disrupted by politics. I am looking forward to spending time with my new family, and introducing my wife to more of her new family.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • Things are warming up for Rudy.
      Subpoenas issued to people with ties to President Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and his associates indicate a broad federal investigation into possible money laundering, obstruction of justice and campaign-finance violations, and suggest that prosecutors are looking closely at the work of Giuliani himself, according to people familiar with the matter.

      In recent weeks, prosecutors have sent subpoenas and other requests to potential witnesses seeking records and information related to Giuliani and two of his associates, according to the people. The investigation, led by the Manhattan U.S. attorney’s office and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, has already led to campaign-finance charges against the associates, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman.
      - the news
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • "...according to people familiar with the matter."

        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I'm no longer surprised that you see things like Executive Privilege (which is expressly spelled out in the Constitution) as "scraping the bottom of the barrel." Your utter contempt for the law is apparent for everyone to see.

          Allow three and four times removed hearsay as legitimate evidence? Sure! Why not? Just as long as Trump is the target.

          Disallow any claim Executive Privilege right off the bat in spite of it being explicitly spelled out in the constitution? Sure! Why not? Just as long as Trump is the target.

          What's next? Forgoing any trial as unnecessary? Because that's the next logical step on this road that you're on.
          1) it is not 3 or 4 times removed hearsay as regards the pertinent evidence.
          2) executive privilege was never meant to allow the president to be above the law. If you cant question those with direct knowledge of the president's actions and words regards a crime, he is above the law.
          3) your willingness to attack me and to try impune my character because we disagree on these issues is noted.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            1) it is not 3 or 4 times removed hearsay as regards the pertinent evidence.
            2) executive privilege was never meant to allow the president to be above the law. If you cant question those with direct knowledge of the president's actions and words regards a crime, he is above the law.
            3) your willingness to attack me and to try impune my character because we disagree on these issues is noted.
            There is no evidence that a crime was even committed, which is why Schiff balked at letting a court decide if the House's demand letters were legally sufficient to penetrate the Constitutional protections of executive privilege. If there was evidence of a crime then it would have been an easy win for the House.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seanD View Post
              Then you must not have paid much attention to the OP, which sadly got obfuscated by yet another thread -- among like half a dozen other threads -- about Trump's "quid pro quo" Ukraine phone call.
              What about my post indicates I wasn't paying attention? I opined about the ethics of helping oneself versus the country and/or combinations thereof, in the general sense. And I referred to an infamous audio recording of the President, which indicates his lack of moral boundaries.

              I'm also intrigued about your placement of quotation marks around "quid pro quo". I agree, it's not really a quid pro quo -- but it is shorthand for the incident. And it sure did happen. See this article quoting the Chief of Staff: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachels.../#39981ca740a4.

              From the article:

              " "Did [Trump] also mention to me, in the past, the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely. No question about that. But that’s it. And that’s why we held up the money,” Mulvaney said in a briefing with reporters Thursday. "

              and

              "Mulvaney went on to downplay the exchange. “I have news for everybody. Get over it. There’s going to be political influence in foreign policy,” he said."
              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

              Comment


              • Originally posted by myth View Post
                What about my post indicates I wasn't paying attention? I opined about the ethics of helping oneself versus the country and/or combinations thereof, in the general sense. And I referred to an infamous audio recording of the President, which indicates his lack of moral boundaries.

                I'm also intrigued about your placement of quotation marks around "quid pro quo". I agree, it's not really a quid pro quo -- but it is shorthand for the incident. And it sure did happen. See this article quoting the Chief of Staff: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachels.../#39981ca740a4.

                From the article:

                " "Did [Trump] also mention to me, in the past, the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely. No question about that. But that’s it. And that’s why we held up the money,” Mulvaney said in a briefing with reporters Thursday. "

                and

                "Mulvaney went on to downplay the exchange. “I have news for everybody. Get over it. There’s going to be political influence in foreign policy,” he said."
                I guess I was a bit confused by your entire post. You seem to indicate that Trump's inquiry to Zelensky was neither for national reasons or personal reasons?

                Personally, I believe Trump did it for national security reasons, and according to the article linked in the OP, he was clearly justified in doing so, and I don't know how anyone that reads the article (unless you have TDS) can say he did it for anything other than that reason. The argument he also did it to find dirt on his political opponent for personal election leverage is always possible, but extremely weak, though that's the common MSM argument. Biden is no political threat to Trump because of Biden's mental state, and Trump has even openly acknowledged this weakness about Biden.

                I put quid pro quo in quotes because I'm not sure that it was, but I'm not really concerned about that argument (it goes back and fourth incessantly on this forum -- he said, she said, they said, the law says this, the law says that) because even if it was, I'm more interested in the bigger picture of why Trump made that inquiry, which is getting totally overshadowed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  I guess I was a bit confused by your entire post. You seem to indicate that Trump's inquiry to Zelensky was neither for national reasons or personal reasons?

                  Personally, I believe Trump did it for national security reasons, and according to the article linked in the OP, he was clearly justified in doing so, and I don't know how anyone that reads the article (unless you have TDS) can say he did it for anything other than that reason. The argument he also did it to find dirt on his political opponent for personal election leverage is always possible, but extremely weak, though that's the common MSM argument. Biden is no political threat to Trump because of Biden's mental state, and Trump has even openly acknowledged this weakness about Biden.

                  I put quid pro quo in quotes because I'm not sure that it was, but I'm not really concerned about that argument (it goes back and fourth incessantly on this forum -- he said, she said, they said, the law says this, the law says that) because even if it was, I'm more interested in the bigger picture of why Trump made that inquiry, which is getting totally overshadowed.
                  I wasn't attempting to make a statement (at that time) one way or another about what Trump did. It was more of an aside between CP and I about the ethics involved in theoretical situations similar to the topic at hand.

                  I am interested in that there does appear to be a significant amount of corruption involved in this whole Ukraine/Biden affair. However, I don't believe for one minute that Trump did this for US national security. Withholding military aide for a key US ally....which could result in in the bolstering of an economic and military rival like Russia....while at the same time adding risk that a democratic country for it's own survival might fall under a dictatorship....that's just plain irresponsible. It the bigger picture, it's doesn't make any sense at all. All the career national security officials I've heard from were aghast at what was happening.

                  Furthermore, why do you think Trump directed his staff to take orders from his personal attorney? He has a literal army of lawyers and other staff that work for him and there was no legitimate need for Rudy's involvement. The only reason I can think of is because Rudy has connections in Ukraine...and because, as Trump's personal attorney it would be much more difficult for investigators to leverage him against Trump (yeah yeah, I know it's been done before -- but it's still an additional liability shield) because of the whole attorney/client privilege thing.

                  Trump has always done what's best for him. He didn't actually think he'd win when he put in for president (remember the interview with the campaign manager he fired after the campaign got serious?). He also has a history of basically conning people -- making a business arrangement and then refusing to pay them. He even set up a "University", had people lie about the product they were selling, encouraged financially insecure people to go deep into debt for useless "classes"....personally endorsed the venture in advertisements...and when he was sued in a class action lawsuit admitted that he had no role whatsoever in crafting the curriculum for the classes, which were supposed to teach Donald Trump's real estate techniques. Then he had the gall to claim in a news interview that the whole venture was a charitable organization, even thought it wasn't registered as a charity and had in fact signed a couple-hundred thousand dollar check from the business' account to himself.

                  Quite frankly, I don't see any reason to believe Trump has done much of anything in the White House that wasn't to help himself. And I even voted for him.
                  "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by myth View Post
                    I wasn't attempting to make a statement (at that time) one way or another about what Trump did. It was more of an aside between CP and I about the ethics involved in theoretical situations similar to the topic at hand.

                    I am interested in that there does appear to be a significant amount of corruption involved in this whole Ukraine/Biden affair. However, I don't believe for one minute that Trump did this for US national security. Withholding military aide for a key US ally....which could result in in the bolstering of an economic and military rival like Russia....while at the same time adding risk that a democratic country for it's own survival might fall under a dictatorship....that's just plain irresponsible. It the bigger picture, it's doesn't make any sense at all. All the career national security officials I've heard from were aghast at what was happening.

                    Furthermore, why do you think Trump directed his staff to take orders from his personal attorney? He has a literal army of lawyers and other staff that work for him and there was no legitimate need for Rudy's involvement. The only reason I can think of is because Rudy has connections in Ukraine...and because, as Trump's personal attorney it would be much more difficult for investigators to leverage him against Trump (yeah yeah, I know it's been done before -- but it's still an additional liability shield) because of the whole attorney/client privilege thing.

                    Trump has always done what's best for him. He didn't actually think he'd win when he put in for president (remember the interview with the campaign manager he fired after the campaign got serious?). He also has a history of basically conning people -- making a business arrangement and then refusing to pay them. He even set up a "University", had people lie about the product they were selling, encouraged financially insecure people to go deep into debt for useless "classes"....personally endorsed the venture in advertisements...and when he was sued in a class action lawsuit admitted that he had no role whatsoever in crafting the curriculum for the classes, which were supposed to teach Donald Trump's real estate techniques. Then he had the gall to claim in a news interview that the whole venture was a charitable organization, even thought it wasn't registered as a charity and had in fact signed a couple-hundred thousand dollar check from the business' account to himself.

                    Quite frankly, I don't see any reason to believe Trump has done much of anything in the White House that wasn't to help himself. And I even voted for him.
                    The money being sent to help Ukraine against Russia would have been in jeopardy anyway if the corruption in Ukraine was still occurring. Zlochevsky was apparently not just money laundering but embezzling US funds. Trump is definitely a pompous, narcissistic ass, but I believe he does care about the country, especially in regards to sending money overseas to foreign governments. I also think the phone call was an attempt to help Barr expand the investigation of Russiagate (maybe that part of it was personal in the sense he wanted to get even?). But I still don't believe the reason the MSM gives for his motive because it doesn't make sense, but to each their own.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      The money being sent to help Ukraine against Russia would have been in jeopardy anyway if the corruption in Ukraine was still occurring. Zlochevsky was apparently not just money laundering but embezzling US funds. Trump is definitely a pompous, narcissistic ass, but I believe he does care about the country, especially in regards to sending money overseas to foreign governments. I also think the phone call was an attempt to help Barr expand the investigation of Russiagate (maybe that part of it was personal in the sense he wanted to get even?). But I still don't believe the reason the MSM gives for his motive because it doesn't make sense, but to each their own.
                      You don't think Trump wanted Biden investigated?
                      "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by myth View Post
                        You don't think Trump wanted Biden investigated?
                        I have absolutely no clue how you've come to that conclusion from any of my posts. Yes, he wants Biden investigated, in fact, I believe he wants to be impeached so the senate can conduct a full investigation. I just don't believe he did it because he felt Biden was a political threat. That's MSM spin to deflect from the fact Biden clearly did exactly what they're accusing Trump of doing, only for worse reasons.

                        Comment



                        • Sen. Lindsey Graham on Joe Biden: "If you can't admire Joe Biden as a person then probably you've got a problem, you need to do some self-evaluation....He is as good a man as God ever created."
                          This shows how Trump has corrupted Lindsey Graham.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            This shows how Trump has corrupted Lindsey Graham.
                            It's too bad we can't hear that quote in full context because the video appears to abruptly cut off at that point.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              It's too bad we can't hear that quote in full context because the video appears to abruptly cut off at that point.
                              But it's obvious that he's saying "as a person".
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                But it's obvious that he's saying "as a person".
                                There's no question he was close friends with Biden. Apparently the Dems opened the door to situations in Ukraine he wasn't privy to beforehand, or maybe just turned a blind eye to before the hoopla started. Or maybe the Russian bots got to Graham.

                                Comment

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