Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Men can get pregnant too...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    At an age when children are likely to tell you that they're anything from a unicorn to a cyborg it is definitely irresponsible to the point of abuse to indulge in these fantasies to the point of surgical modification. I mean would we allow a child to have a horn grafted to their head or start replacing perfectly fine body parts with mechanical ones?
    You think child psychiatrists and pediatricians are incapable of determining the reliability of a child's health/psychological claims?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      I already did. Their size, skeletal structure and musculature. I even showed you photos. Your response seems to be closing your eyes and ignoring anything that doesn't fit your narrative.
      Do the top athletes for any given sport not already have an especially suited size, skeletal structure, and musculature? The average WNBA player is taller than the average man. Wouldn't someone like Brittney Griner, who is 6'8", be superior to the average transwoman in those parameters? Also, if a trans athlete was given puberty blockers, they wouldn't have those advantages, so you must approve of at least some transwoman competing with ciswomen.

      Because they are natural and not artificial advantages. I am against doping with hormones also.
      Could you define, as precise as possible, what you consider an artificial advantage?

      Surgery to fix defects is different than surgery to change sex. And you seem to be the one against psychiatric solutions. Rather than fixing their defective minds you think it's better to fit their bodies to their delusions.
      The medial team that treats with transitioning don't see that difference and part of that process is determining whether psychiatric solutions are effective. Why do you think you know what would work for a patient better than their doctor(s)?

      My meaning is that, as you say, everyone thinks Pedophilia is wrong because children can't consent or make mature choices. Children can't even enter into contracts. Yet, you think that they can make a choice to change their sex, which will affect the rest of their lives???? The cognitive disconnect baffles me.
      I was confused by the phrasing "Aren't you one of those that says...". It made it seem like you think people who believe pedophilia is wrong because children can't consent are a minority/fringe group and that you are not including yourself in that group, but now it see it was just miscommunication.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        I think Sparko, like many of the Christian posters here, doesn't base his morality on reasoning (e.g. not something like 'pedophilia is wrong because a child can't consent') and instead bases it on a hodge-podge of what the Christians around him believe with a bit of bible occasionally thrown in. Since the bible doesn't say much, if anything at all, about pedophilia, this is probably a case of people around him told him it was wrong when he was growing up, and he takes that to be the general 'Christian' view (notwithstanding Catholic Church aberrations).

        Whereas in contrast your moral views (and those of most atheists) tend to be more carefully reasoned out, and he's trying to use that against you here and suggest your reasoning ought to lead to conclusions about the treatment of transgender people. But, as you note, his suggested conclusion doesn't actually follow.
        I thought it might be something like "I believe pedophilia is wrong because God said it was", in which case I wanted to know why he thought God would say it was wrong, expecting to arrive at the Euthyphro dilemma. The number of Christians who say the only thing stopping them from committing the most heinous of crimes is their belief is deeply disturbing.

        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Don't you understand that the conservatives here know better than the doctors? The conservatives have firm views. Whereas those doctors and experts and trained professionals Just Don't Understand The Truth.
        It's quite apparent that people who are against transitioning as a treatment are arguing based on a presupposition and their arguments are justifications rather than evidence that lead them to that conclusion.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          How can you base any moral position on reasoning when there are no objective moral truths in the atheist world? You only end up arguing in a circle for your own personal preferences.
          There are no objective moral truths in the theist world either. Merely "truths" as determined by community social values and enforced by said communities. In your world they are reinforced by a judicious selection of scriptural texts as well. This until such time as community values change (e.g. re slavery or the role of women) whereby these useful texts are reinterpreted and/or different texts selected.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
            Could you define your use of elective? Medically speaking, most treatment is elective.

            Trans people already go through psychological therapy prior to getting puberty-blockers, during which it is determined if their condition is permanent or not. Is this unsatisfactory for you?
            You can't know if an eight year old's view of their sexuality is permanent or not, that is ludicrous on its face.

            Do trans- kids stay trans- when they grow up?

            Following the closure of the CAMH Gender Identity Clinic for children, I have been receiving requests for what the science says. Do kids grow out of wanting to change sex, or does it continue when they are adults?

            In total, there have been three large scale follow-up studies and a handful of smaller ones. I have listed all of them below, together with their results. (In the table, “cis-” means non-transsexual.) Despite the differences in country, culture, decade, and follow-up length and method, all the studies have come to a remarkably similar conclusion: Only very few trans- kids still want to transition by the time they are adults. Instead, they generally turn out to be regular gay or lesbian folks. The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood.

            http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01...y-grow_99.html
            What is the problem with waiting until they are adults?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
              Do the top athletes for any given sport not already have an especially suited size, skeletal structure, and musculature? The average WNBA player is taller than the average man. Wouldn't someone like Brittney Griner, who is 6'8", be superior to the average transwoman in those parameters? Also, if a trans athlete was given puberty blockers, they wouldn't have those advantages, so you must approve of at least some transwoman competing with ciswomen.
              If they were physically the same as women then I would not have a problem. I have a problem with MEN dominating women's sports because of their superior physique.



              Could you define, as precise as possible, what you consider an artificial advantage?
              Not natural. Genetically, chemically, or surgically modified. Taking performance drugs would be one example. A man claiming to be a woman is another.



              The medial team that treats with transitioning don't see that difference and part of that process is determining whether psychiatric solutions are effective. Why do you think you know what would work for a patient better than their doctor(s)?
              The difference is obvious. Do you need me to post those photos again? Heck most of these "transwomen" haven't even had the surgery. They are basically transvestites.


              I was confused by the phrasing "Aren't you one of those that says...". It made it seem like you think people who believe pedophilia is wrong because children can't consent are a minority/fringe group and that you are not including yourself in that group, but now it see it was just miscommunication.
              OK.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                You can't know if an eight year old's view of their sexuality is permanent or not, that is ludicrous on its face.
                It's literally the job of doctors who deal with trans youth to do this (sex, not sexuality).

                What is the problem with waiting until they are adults?
                It's interesting you provided that source. That's an evaluation of multiple studies by Dr. James Cantor, who also wrote as part of an MRI study on the brain:

                "Also meriting emphasis is that—although these data disconfirm that the heterosexual type has a feminized brain pattern—the data nonetheless confirm that heterosexual transsexuals have a brain structure distinct from that of typical (nontranssexual) persons. Their gender identity is not a transient or ephemeral characteristic, but a likely innate and immutable characteristic, emerging from their particular brain structure."
                Do you also agree with this finding of your expert of choice? He also wrote a Transexual Bill of Rights.

                The problem of waiting until they are adults is that the better a transperson can transition to their identified sex the better their health. Transpeople commonly commit suicide due to the contrast between their identity and their reality, so the completeness of their change can be a matter of life or death.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  If they were physically the same as women then I would not have a problem. I have a problem with MEN dominating women's sports because of their superior physique.
                  What led you to the conclusion than transwomen are dominating women's sports?

                  Not natural. Genetically, chemically, or surgically modified. Taking performance drugs would be one example. A man claiming to be a woman is another.
                  Take a look at these scenarios and tell me if you have a problem with these athletes competing (assume all are ciswomen):

                  1. An archer who had corrective LASIK surgery.
                  2. A weight-lifter with polycystic ovary syndrome, resulting in a higher testosterone level than other competitors.
                  3. The same as 2 but through treatment her testosterone level is now average.
                  4. A tennis player with ADHD who was prescribed a stimulant for treatment.
                  5. A double-leg amputee runner with prosthetics.

                  The difference is obvious. Do you need me to post those photos again? Heck most of these "transwomen" haven't even had the surgery. They are basically transvestites.
                  It's most certainly not obvious. In both cases doctors have a suffering patient and have concluded that a certain treatment is likely to be most effective. How could you possibly know where in the transition process any given transathlete is?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                    What led you to the conclusion than transwomen are dominating women's sports?
                    I just showed you pictures of them doing just that. Do I need to post news articles too? At this point I think you are just being willfully ignorant.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                      It's literally the job of doctors who deal with trans youth to do this (sex, not sexuality).
                      That is nonsense, we don't know nearly enough about gender dysphoria to come to any firm conclusions. Especially since more kids grow out of it. Do we have a certain way to tell the difference?


                      It's interesting you provided that source. That's an evaluation of multiple studies by Dr. James Cantor, who also wrote as part of an MRI study on the brain:


                      Do you also agree with this finding of your expert of choice? He also wrote a Transexual Bill of Rights.

                      The problem of waiting until they are adults is that the better a transperson can transition to their identified sex the better their health. Transpeople commonly commit suicide due to the contrast between their identity and their reality, so the completeness of their change can be a matter of life or death.
                      Do you agree that the vast majority of kids who identify as trans grow out of it? So what is the justification for using, often harmful, medications? And why didn't you link the MRI study?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment

                      Related Threads

                      Collapse

                      Topics Statistics Last Post
                      Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                      16 responses
                      140 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post One Bad Pig  
                      Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                      53 responses
                      369 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post Mountain Man  
                      Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                      25 responses
                      112 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post rogue06
                      by rogue06
                       
                      Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                      33 responses
                      197 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post Roy
                      by Roy
                       
                      Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                      84 responses
                      364 views
                      0 likes
                      Last Post JimL
                      by JimL
                       
                      Working...
                      X