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List of Trump's crimes?

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    ETA: I'll take a gamble here --- and suppose you're talking about the "implication" of a QPQ in the Ukraine situation.

    I believe I've stated before that QPQ is done all the time in international relations. We don't just give foreign aid because we love another country - we do it, at least in part, because we hope to influence them to do or not do certain things. That's clearly "this for that".
    Yes, that is the implication I'm talking about.

    And yes, QPQ happens - and it is fine as long as it is national interest for national interest. The issue here is that aid was being used to coerce aid for President Trump's next term campaign, help in building a case against an opponent. That is illegal. He can't solicit help with his campaign from any foreign entity, nor can he accept any personal gifts from any foreign entity - of any time.

    So - as I said - Trump is clearly connecting the White House visit with Ukraine investigating Biden and Burisma. So the implication of a potential illegal quid pro quo exists. But one needs additional evidence and testimony to remove from doubt the possibility this was not a friendly request for a favor. And that is where the discussion would turn from here. I believe we have more than enough evidence to establish that Trump was in fact holding not only the White House visit but the congressionally allcated aid as ransom for an announcement concerning these investigations, and that the primary target of the investigations was not a general move from corruption but rather Biden/Burisma in an attempt to dig up dirt on Biden. And I believe the case is fairly simple to build from the testimony and facts that have been gathered and heard.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      There’s this old saying:

      “Assuming things makes an ass out of you and me.”
      And in this case, of Ming too.

      Be careful, he's merciless.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Did you not read? You said that myself, MM, and CP are not capable of honest discussion, so you can justify yourself and remove all responsibility for any breakdowns when the reality is you’re not capable of rational discussion, due to your presumptions.
        No pix. I said that if we could agree on the fact the transcript contained the implication of Quid Pro Quo, then it would be possible to have a rational discussion on the issue of Ukraine. Not capable of having a rational discussion and defining the conditions under which a rational discussion might be possible are not the same thing.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Yes, that is the implication I'm talking about.
          So you're prepared to withdraw your own silly implication that I can't admit there's such an implication?

          And yes, QPQ happens - and it is fine as long as it is national interest for national interest.
          It is the very basis of diplomacy.

          The issue here is that aid was being used to coerce aid for President Trump's next term campaign, help in building a case against an opponent.
          No, the issue here is that it is ALLEGED that the aid was used SOLELY for the purpose....

          That is illegal. He can't solicit help with his campaign from any foreign entity, nor can he accept any personal gifts from any foreign entity - of any time.
          And that's what the impeachment will address, hopefully.

          So - as I said - Trump is clearly connecting the White House visit with Ukraine investigating Biden and Burisma. So the implication of a potential illegal quid pro quo exists. But one needs additional evidence and testimony to remove from doubt the possibility this was not a friendly request for a favor. And that is where the discussion would turn from here. I believe we have more than enough evidence to establish that Trump was in fact holding not only the White House visit but the congressionally allcated aid as ransom for an announcement concerning these investigations, and that the primary target of the investigations was not a general move from corruption but rather Biden/Burisma in an attempt to dig up dirt on Biden. And I believe the case is fairly simple to build from the testimony and facts that have been gathered and heard.
          There's still the possibility that there was a request made in the national interest of the country that ALSO benefited Trump personally. I don't know, and neither do you.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Did you not read? You said that myself, MM, and CP are not capable of honest discussion....
            Actually, my dear brother was a bit less charitable to me than that, but I'll roll with it.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Yes, that's the current talking point, it appears.



              Calls for speculation, and lots of it.
              I disagree as to the amount of speculation. But I will agree it is no sort of proof he is under pressure from Trump, just a likely indicator he is.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                I disagree as to the amount of speculation. But I will agree it is no sort of proof he is under pressure from Trump, just a likely indicator he is.
                Not many people have been convicted on the basis of "likely indicators", Jim.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Actually, my dear brother was a bit less charitable to me than that, but I'll roll with it.
                  not in the post she refers to CP.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    No pix. I said that if we could agree on the fact the transcript contained the implication of Quid Pro Quo, then it would be possible to have a rational discussion on the issue of Ukraine. Not capable of having a rational discussion and defining the conditions under which a rational discussion might be possible are not the same thing.
                    And again, you are not capable of having this rational discussion or any, on all things Trump. Due to your presumptions and heavy emotional involvement.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Not many people have been convicted on the basis of "likely indicators", Jim.
                      We are not talking about conviction CP. We are talking about what significance might be found in Zelensky repeating his assertion he felt no pressure from Trump.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        We are not talking about conviction CP.
                        If this moves from the House to the Senate, there will need to be a conviction, Jim.

                        We are talking about what significance might be found in Zelensky repeating his assertion he felt on pressure from Trump.
                        As pertains to the impeachment, yes, for which there would need to be a conviction in the Senate.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          And again, you are not capable of having this rational discussion or any, on all things Trump. Due to your presumptions and heavy emotional involvement.
                          I seem to be having a rational discussion with MM and CP at the moment. Hopefully it will continue. All that is required is not throwing the verbal equivalent of Molotov cocktails my direction.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            not in the post she refers to CP.
                            Does it matter WHERE you said it, Jim? I actually missed it until it was pointed out to me, but it is a bit disappointing, regardless of which post in which you said it.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              I disagree as to the amount of speculation. But I will agree it is no sort of proof he is under pressure from Trump, just a likely indicator he is.
                              More speculation, with zero evidence. This is the problem this case continues to have Jim. There’s tons of assumptions, lots of speculation, a ton of showmanship, but really little in the way of hard evidence.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                I seem to be having a rational discussion with MM and CP at the moment. Hopefully it will continue. All that is required is not throwing the verbal equivalent of Molotov cocktails my direction.
                                Great gaslighting. Tell another one.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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