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List of Trump's crimes?

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    That isn't really true MM, Clinton enjoyed 60 ot 70% approval even while being impeached! And there is no equivalence between some subset of the population not liking the president and wanting someone else in office and 50% wanting that same president impeached and removed from office. Looking back on the Clinton Impeachment, there is no comparison. I would guess one must go back to Nixon for anything even close. And even then, I'm not sure that in today's climate Nixon would have felt the need to resign. What Nixon did was no worse than what Trump has done. So the difference is that in Nixon's day all parties valued the constitution and the rule of law and especially the integrity of the election process more than they did retaining power. And the public had far less tolerance for the sort of shenanigans Trump is engaged in.
    Biggest difference between Trump and Bill Clinton is that Clinton enjoyed almost fawning support from the media while Trump has been vilified pretty much on an hourly basis even before he won the election. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large number of low-info types who have never heard a good word said about Trump simply because the mainstream media has never published one.

    And this all generously assumes that opinion polls can even be trusted.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
      Out of curiosity, what do you think Trump would have said if he was trying to demand quid pro quo?

      Alternatively, if he actually was demanding quid pro quo, could the words he used be interpreted in that way?

      You keep complaining about hearsay but it’s well understood now (I didn’t know before) that the intelligence committee was conducting an evidence gathering inquiry. This makes the hearsay complaints even more ridiculous than before. Has anyone ever had an issue with hearsay during evidence gathering before this?

      Also which witnesses testimony do you think was all hearsay?
      There’s this old saying:

      “Assuming things makes an ass out of you and me.”
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Biggest difference between Trump and Bill Clinton is that Clinton enjoyed almost fawning support from the media while Trump has been vilified pretty much on an hourly basis even before he won the election. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large number of low-info types who have never heard a good word said about Trump simply because the mainstream media has never published one.

        And this all generously assumes that opinion polls can even be trusted.
        Plus, the media made it about adultery rather than about lying, under oath. It’s really easy to look good, when those with the largest voice are not willing to speak an ill word about you.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          Plus, the media made it about adultery rather than about lying, under oath.
          And, marching his CABINET MEMBERS out before the media to lie for him, knowing that he's having them to lie. Pretty much suborning perjury.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
            Ah yes thanks, I remember something similar from Yes Minister. I don’t know what question was asked so that’s a dead end.

            Well everyone values evidence a little differently. I think they have easily met preponderance of the evidence and I base that opinion solely on the evidence provided and taking into account the failure to provide an equally plausible explanation in defense.

            Was there really nothing that the witnesses said that made you even a little teeny weeny bit concerned about Trump? Even just simply the fact that so many people, held in high regard by both sides and well experienced, felt so concerned didn’t concern you?
            Preponderance of evidence? It was all secondhand hearsay at best, and presumption and guesses at worst. Even when directly asked, multiple witnesses said they were not concerned that Trump did anything that could be described as criminal even if they disagreed with his policy decisions, and the only person who testified speaking to Trump directly quoted the President as saying in no uncertain terms that there was to be no quid pro quo.

            So I'm not sure what preponderance of evidence you're referring to.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              A) That's clearly "this for that".
              And if the ‘that’ is purely for your own benefit then doing ‘this’ was an abuse of power.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                And if the ‘that’ is purely for your own benefit then doing ‘this’ was an abuse of power.
                I'd agree! But if "this for that" was also in the national interest, then it's not "purely for your own benefit".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  When a person in power asks for a favor of a subordinate...
                  President Zelensky is not subordinate to President Trump.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    And, marching his CABINET MEMBERS out before the media to lie for him, knowing that he's having them to lie. Pretty much suborning perjury.
                    And how many members of the media, discussed this detail and those that did, how large is their audience? The fact the media can only get 50% pro impeachment, on Trump, isn’t a very good sign for the power of the mass media. Their power is waining, and they know it.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      And how many members of the media, discussed this detail and those that did, how large is their audience? The fact the media can only get 50% pro impeachment, on Trump, isn’t a very good sign for the power of the mass media. Their power is waining, and they know it.
                      That's the thing - with 24/7 "orange man bad", I'm surprised there's not 70% in some poll somewhere who want Trump impeached and removed. The fact that it's only HALF....
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        President Zelensky is not subordinate to President Trump.
                        By the way, he's repeating his claim that he felt no pressure....
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I'd agree! But if "this for that" was also in the national interest, then it's not "purely for your own benefit".
                          You also had those who were questioned by Starr running to the media and falsely claiming that all of his questions focused on the salacious details of Clinton's affairs, allowing the media to run with the narrative that Starr was a disgusting, sex-obsessed pervert. And Starr, being in the middle of an investigation, was forbidden from correcting the record. All of this no doubt shaped public opinion about whether or not Clinton should be impeached.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Preponderance of evidence? It was all secondhand hearsay at best, and presumption and guesses at worst. Even when directly asked, multiple witnesses said they were not concerned that Trump did anything that could be described as criminal even if they disagreed with his policy decisions, and the only person who testified speaking to Trump directly quoted the President as saying in no uncertain terms that there was to be no quid pro quo.

                            So I'm not sure what preponderance of evidence you're referring to.
                            Just quickly.

                            Facts

                            Sonderland plus 2 sent to Ukraine by Trump to ‘direct foreign policy’

                            Sonderland in direct communication with Trump and Giuliani

                            Sonderland repeatedly requests Ukrainians to announce investigations

                            Sonderland tells Ukrainians White House meeting is conditioned on announcement

                            Trump call with Zelensky

                            Aid withheld with no reason given

                            Sonderland tells Ukrainians and Taylor that ‘everything including aid is conditioned on making that announcement’



                            Based on those points is it more likely than not that:

                            1 - aid was conditioned on making announcement?
                            2 - Sonderland was acting under Trumps instructions?


                            Yes to both gives you preponderance but you also take into account that there is no alternative explanation to consider so you only have one choice.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I'd agree! But if "this for that" was also in the national interest, then it's not "purely for your own benefit".
                              I’d also agree! That’s why Biden was cleared.

                              Convince me that announcements into Biden and 2016 was in the national interest so we can be in agreement again!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                                Just quickly.

                                Facts

                                Sonderland plus 2 sent to Ukraine by Trump to ‘direct foreign policy’

                                Sonderland in direct communication with Trump and Giuliani

                                Sonderland repeatedly requests Ukrainians to announce investigations

                                Sonderland tells Ukrainians White House meeting is conditioned on announcement

                                Trump call with Zelensky

                                Aid withheld with no reason given

                                Sonderland tells Ukrainians and Taylor that ‘everything including aid is conditioned on making that announcement’



                                Based on those points is it more likely than not that:

                                1 - aid was conditioned on making announcement?
                                2 - Sonderland was acting under Trumps instructions?


                                Yes to both gives you preponderance but you also take into account that there is no alternative explanation to consider so you only have one choice.
                                The way you present it, it sounds like Sondland and not Trump should be on trial! Sondland openly admitted that he was acting on presumption, and that when he asked the President directly was told very curtly that there was to be no quid pro quo. He is, to my knowledge, the only person on record who spoke directly with Trump, and Trump's words as quoted by Sondland undermine the entire case for impeachment.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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