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  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    If the Democrats weren't acting like a bunch of wild asses then impeachment wouldn't even be on the table.
    I think you just made my point ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Ya know, Jim, if the Democrats weren't acting like a bunch of wild asses, America might be 75% behind impeachment AND removal. I think one of the mitigating factors in Trump's favor is that the Democrats are handling this so incredibly badly.
    If the Democrats weren't acting like a bunch of wild asses then impeachment wouldn't even be on the table.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The Democrats would do themselves a great service by having somebody who wasn't quite so rabidly anti-Trump to manage the impeachment.
    I'm not sure it is possible to have anyone managing the impeachment that would not be portrayed and ultimately perceived as 'rabidly anti-Trump'.

    That is, I think position drives perception right now, not facts, not reality. If a person says something bad about Trump, they are necessarily 'anti-Trump' and the pro-trump forces will rally against them.

    It's like what happens if you are in a YEC church and you start asking if an evolutionist might have a point about something. You become 'the enemy' very fast.

    That is what Trump relies on with his base. He knows that anything he does that the media calls out will always be believed to be in some way manufactured by the 'fake new'. The idea it's actually what was reported, or that it's as bad as it appears to be, is believed to be impossible. Its the "no true scotsman" fallacy on a massive scale.


    Jim
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-21-2019, 10:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    That is possible. But I see that perception - that the democrats are the 'other Satan' so to speak as part of the problem. The country is so divided that there is room for the extremes to get even more extreme because whatever side a person is on, the other side looks so bad that they will hang with whatever is a little bit closer to what they prefer. It has opened to door for a Trump to exist and occupy the white house.

    But for those that are on that side of the fence, I think he's a Trojan horse, something worse that what conservatives are afraid of on the Democratic side.

    Jim
    The Democrats would do themselves a great service by having somebody who wasn't quite so rabidly anti-Trump to manage the impeachment.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Ya know, Jim, if the Democrats weren't acting like a bunch of wild asses, America might be 75% behind impeachment AND removal. I think one of the mitigating factors in Trump's favor is that the Democrats are handling this so incredibly badly.
    That is possible. But I see that perception - that the democrats are the 'other Satan' so to speak as part of the problem. The country is so divided that there is room for the extremes to get even more extreme because whatever side a person is on, the other side looks so bad that they will hang with whatever is a little bit closer to what they prefer. It has opened to door for a Trump to exist and occupy the white house.

    But for those that are on that side of the fence, I think he's a Trojan horse, something worse that what conservatives are afraid of on the Democratic side.

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    perhaps. But suppose a president the population as a whole supports is impeached without true cause. Theoretically, the group that did the impeaching would be gone in two to four years.

    But there is more to it than that. To a very great extent, a government like ours is only stable when its ideals are embraced and adhered to by all - or at least most - involved. The real problem now is that in electing Trump something far worse that just having policies that we might disagree or agree with is happening. Trump is eroding the ideals and principles critical to our government's function. One by one making them no longer sacred, no longer important. And the cost of that to our republic is far greater than most are willing to accept. Most americans are too self-centered, to short-sighted to even want to understand why such things are of critical importance. With Trump, conservatives hoping for more conservative justices, or better protection of the borders have seen advances in those areas, but at a critical, and perhaps ultimately mortal, cost to our government's stability and to our place on the word stage as a leader, especially as a moral leader. How we deal with that will determine if we ever recover. Impeachment may be the only remedy to this calamity, especially if our political process is so corrupted at this point he can't be expected to be removed from office through the election process even though the majority of the country disapprove of what he is doing.

    Our election in 2016 did NOT express the will of the majority of the people in this country. And it is even worse now. Yet many think he can win.

    When the will of the majority can be thwarted by corrupt means, we are on the way down. And Trump has been shown willing several times now to use corrupt means to ensure a victory. And yet a large population of people support him in spite of that.

    We are at critical point of a downward spiral if a large population of america has become so morally corrupt they are willing to allow, even defend and support, a politician that uses overtly corrupt means to keep himself in office.




    Jim
    Ya know, Jim, if the Democrats weren't acting like a bunch of wild asses, America might be 75% behind impeachment AND removal. I think one of the mitigating factors in Trump's favor is that the Democrats are handling this so incredibly badly.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    ...or because it's in their best political interest...

    Impeachment is, after all, an entirely political process.
    perhaps. But suppose a president the population as a whole supports is impeached without true cause. Theoretically, the group that did the impeaching would be gone in two to four years.

    But there is more to it than that. To a very great extent, a government like ours is only stable when its ideals are embraced and adhered to by all - or at least most - involved. The real problem now is that in electing Trump something far worse that just having policies that we might disagree or agree with is happening. Trump is eroding the ideals and principles critical to our government's function. One by one making them no longer sacred, no longer important. And the cost of that to our republic is far greater than most are willing to accept. Most americans are too self-centered, to short-sighted to even want to understand why such things are of critical importance. With Trump, conservatives hoping for more conservative justices, or better protection of the borders have seen advances in those areas, but at a critical, and perhaps ultimately mortal, cost to our government's stability and to our place on the word stage as a leader, especially as a moral leader. How we deal with that will determine if we ever recover. Impeachment may be the only remedy to this calamity, especially if our political process is so corrupted at this point he can't be expected to be removed from office through the election process even though the majority of the country disapprove of what he is doing.

    Our election in 2016 did NOT express the will of the majority of the people in this country. And it is even worse now. Yet many think he can win.

    When the will of the majority can be thwarted by corrupt means, we are on the way down. And Trump has been shown willing several times now to use corrupt means to ensure a victory. And yet a large population of people support him in spite of that.

    We are at critical point of a downward spiral if a large population of america has become so morally corrupt they are willing to allow, even defend and support, a politician that uses overtly corrupt means to keep himself in office.




    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    ....Actually MM, something you don't seem to understand, is that the President doesn't have to commit an actual crime to be impeached. If the Senate, i.e the impeachment Jury, determines that the President is unfit for reasons of malfeasence, or abuse of the public trust, or any acts which those definitions circumscribe, then they can convict and boot him from office.....
    ...or because it's in their best political interest...

    Impeachment is, after all, an entirely political process.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Who needs facts when you have truth, isn't that right?
    Oh they have plenty of facts, MM. The Ukraine deal is just the icing on the cake. They have campaign finance fraud, they have collusion, they have obstruction of justice, they have emoluments violations, they have conspiracy to extort, and the list goes on. You can't see that of course, but that's only because you have a bit of a brain problem which bars facts from entering.
    Democrats are already pushing the narrative that the President doesn't actually need to have committed a crime to be impeached because they know they're serving up another nothing burger here.
    Actually MM, something you don't seem to understand, is that the President doesn't have to commit an actual crime to be impeached. If the Senate, i.e the impeachment Jury, determines that the President is unfit for reasons of malfeasence, or abuse of the public trust, or any acts which those definitions circumscribe, then they can convict and boot him from office.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Translation: "If it's not against the law, then the law is wrong!"

    This is exactly the sort of nuttery I'm talking about.
    I understand you just cant help yourself. I mean, if you actually dealt with what was said, you'd have to admit you were wrong!

    And that just is never going to happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    That simply isn't true MM. however, one thing Trump has made clear is that there are many actions that can be taken that would have never been taken by predecessors that respected the constitution of the US and the rule of law. And as a result of the excesses seen in the Trump Presidency, it has become clear they need to be codified into law. Those sorts of things may well be impeachable, even if they are not technically against the law, simply because they are a clear violation of the Oath of Office.

    Jim
    Translation: "If it's not against the law, then the law is wrong!"

    This is exactly the sort of nuttery I'm talking about.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Who needs facts when you have truth, isn't that right?

    Democrats are already pushing the narrative that the President doesn't actually need to have committed a crime to be impeached because they know they're serving up another nothing burger here.
    That simply isn't true MM. however, one thing Trump has made clear is that there are many actions that can be taken that would have never been taken by predecessors that respected the constitution of the US and the rule of law. And as a result of the excesses seen in the Trump Presidency, it has become clear they need to be codified into law. Those sorts of things may well be impeachable, even if they are not technically against the law, simply because they are a clear violation of the Oath of Office.

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    Intelligent people don't need it perfectly spelled out to them...
    Who needs facts when you have truth, isn't that right?

    Democrats are already pushing the narrative that the President doesn't actually need to have committed a crime to be impeached because they know they're serving up another nothing burger here.

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Misleading title, unless you;re posting the official document stating why nice doctors in white coats are taking you away.
    Hey Demi, help Trump out will ya. The election interference that helped put him in office, was it Russia or Ukraine?

    Leave a comment:


  • JimL
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Mulvaney never said that the intent was to benefit campaign efforts against the Democrats. That's just your unfounded assumption.
    Intelligent people don't need it perfectly spelled out to them, MM. Besides that, Ukraine is at war with our common adversary and the Congress appropriated that aid for the defense of Ukraine, not to be withheld and used by the President to extort the Ukrainian government. Btw, there is also plenty of corroborating evidence as Trump was unable to intimidate or prevent patriotic witnesses from testifying as to exactly what he was up to.

    Leave a comment:

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