Are These People Freaking Nuts?

[KingsGambit]

Wow. Just... wow.

I know you like to play the curmudgeon, but perhaps consider the possibility that we really do have a new believer here who's struggling right now and react with a semblance of a heart for once.

[JimL]

Back in the day Manning would have already been executed so there would be no need for hormone therapy...

Not to debate the issue, but just out of curiosity seer, I was wondering if you feel the same about Edward Snowden. Do you think he should he be executed as well?

[JimL]

Prisoners should only get basic healthcare, medications, and surgeries. Not what I would call "elective procedures" -- Heck even my own health insurance doesn't cover elective stuff. Why should someone who is being punished in prison?

Sorry to hear that Sparko, the pirate world could use more female pirates.

[Raphael]

That is appalling I seem to be the only one posting here who sees Manning as an hero.

I thought it was well established BC (Before Crash) that you were the only one to think that.

He betrayed his country in a time of war revealing secrets that were helpful to your enemies. As someone said, not too long ago he would have been given a wall to stand against and a cigarette.

[Paprika]

I thought it was well established BC (Before Crash) that you were the only one to think that.

He betrayed his country in a time of war revealing secrets that were helpful to your enemies. As someone said, not too long ago he would have been given a wall to stand against and a cigarette.

I thought it was established before crash that someone could be both a traitor and a hero.

[Cerebrum123]

Stop apologizing to that piece of crap.

I know you have your disagreements with Leon(so do I btw), but this, like Seer's comment, goes too far.

[Raphael]

I thought it was established before crash that someone could be both a traitor and a hero.

Yes someone can be (Deitrich Bonhoeffer springs immediately to mind).

Manning however isn't a hero. He is just a traitor.

[Paprika]

Yes someone can be (Deitrich Bonhoeffer springs immediately to mind).

Manning however isn't a hero. He is just a traitor.

The traitor part is unquestionable. That he isn't a hero: do you mind establishing that? What criteria must a person satisfy to make him a hero? How has Manning not satisfied the necessary criteria?

[Raphael]

The traitor part is unquestionable. That he isn't a hero: do you mind establishing that? What criteria must a person satisfy to make him a hero? How has Manning not satisfied the necessary criteria?

Uhhh, because he didn't do anything heroic.
IIRC his main motivation for his actions was spite. The information he gave out, while may have revealed some things the American government shouldn't have done, mostly served to sour international relations while at the same time dangerously exposing people who had helped the American government. There was nothing heroic in his action, and except for conspiracy nuts like Auggie, I can't see why anyone would regard him as a hero.

[Paprika]

Uhhh, because he didn't do anything heroic.

Are you saying that doing something "heroic" is the criterion for being a hero? This kind of definition does not inform at all.

Allow me to sharpen the question: you say that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a hero. What defines a hero? Which part of this definition did Bonhoeffer satisfy such that he became a hero?

IIRC his main motivation for his actions was spite.

Please do show that.

The information he gave out, while may have revealed some things the American government shouldn't have done, mostly served to sour international relations while at the same time dangerously exposing people who had helped the American government.

Is this supposed to count against the case of him being a hero?

[Raphael]

Are you saying that doing something "heroic" is the criterion for being a hero? This kind of definition does not inform at all.

What would you define as being heroic behaviour?

Allow me to sharpen the question: you say that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a hero. What defines a hero? Which part of this definition did Bonhoeffer satisfy such that he became a hero?

Bonhoeffer publicly spoke out against the Nazi party from the day that Hitler was appointed chancellor. He repeatedly called on Christian Germans to put a stop to the persecution of Jews, telling them that the church must not simply "bandage the victims under the wheel, but jam the spoke in the wheel itself. Later on he helped Jews to safety while running an underground seminary. he served as an intelligence agent for the allied forces and he had a role in the 1943 plots to assassinate Hitler. He didn't try justify his actions, but accepted his guilt writing: "when a man takes guilt upon himself in responsibility, he imputes his guilt to himself and no one else. He answers for it... Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace."
He was executed for his role in this 2 weeks before the prison camp he was in was liberated. He had refused of offer to be helped to escape in order to protect his family from retribution.
He laid down his life to try stop the actions of one of history's more notorious figures.

Please do show that.

To be honest I'm going off memory as Ive not really been following much of the case, but this is what I read some years back that gave me that opinion: http://blog.reidreport.com/2011/07/manning-chat-logs/

Is this supposed to count against the case of him being a hero?

Ummm, yes. That is part of why I say he isn't a hero.

[Paprika]

What would you define as being heroic behaviour?

No, no, no. No trying to shift the burden of proof. You say that Manning is not a hero, whereas Bonhoeffer is. What defines a hero, such that one is a hero, and the other is not?

Bonhoeffer publicly spoke out against the Nazi party from the day that Hitler was appointed chancellor. He repeatedly called on Christian Germans to put a stop to the persecution of Jews, telling them that the church must not simply "bandage the victims under the wheel, but jam the spoke in the wheel itself. Later on he helped Jews to safety while running an underground seminary. he served as an intelligence agent for the allied forces and he had a role in the 1943 plots to assassinate Hitler. He didn't try justify his actions, but accepted his guilt writing: "when a man takes guilt upon himself in responsibility, he imputes his guilt to himself and no one else. He answers for it... Before other men he is justified by dire necessity; before himself he is acquitted by his conscience, but before God he hopes only for grace."
He was executed for his role in this 2 weeks before the prison camp he was in was liberated. He had refused of offer to be helped to escape in order to protect his family from retribution.
He laid down his life to try stop the actions of one of history's more notorious figures.

Still looking for criteria. You're merely listing some actions. What makes them heroic?

To be honest I'm going off memory as Ive not really been following much of the case, but this is what I read some years back that gave me that opinion: http://blog.reidreport.com/2011/07/manning-chat-logs/

Which part of these logs indicate spite?

Ummm, yes. That is part of why I say he isn't a hero.

So one of the criteria of 'hero' is the consequences of the actions?

[Raphael]

No, no, no. No trying to shift the burden of proof. You say that Manning is not a hero, whereas Bonhoeffer is. What defines a hero, such that one is a hero, and the other is not?

The actions, the motives and yes the outcomes of their actions.

Still looking for criteria. You're merely listing some actions. What makes them heroic?

Which part of these logs indicate spite?

From my reading it was his being upset about facing a discharge. Coupled with a time of his life which was highly confusing for him. His gloat about "Hilary Clinton and several thousand diplomats are going to have a heart attack" Stand out to me.

So one of the criteria of 'hero' is the consequences of the actions?

Well yes. If the person who presses the button that starts WW3 does it with the best of motives, would we call them a hero? Probably not.

Perhaps the infamous "cockpit cam" should have been released, but the rest? the cables etc. which only served to damage international relations between America and her allies. often exposing people who had been working with America in places like Afghanistan where such co-operation if found out leads to a bullet in the head?

[seer]

Not to debate the issue, but just out of curiosity seer, I was wondering if you feel the same about Edward Snowden. Do you think he should he be executed as well?

Most certainly.

[Paprika]

The actions, the motives and yes the outcomes of their actions.

So what is it about the actions, and the motives, and the outcomes, that make the person a hero?

From my reading it was his being upset about facing a discharge. Coupled with a time of his life which was highly confusing for him. His gloat about "Hilary Clinton and several thousand diplomats are going to have a heart attack" Stand out to me.

Contextually, it doesn't seem to me like a gloat.
:L is a smilie that tends to indicate hesitancy or unease. My question is: how do you determine that it was a gloat? Manning doesn't mock them or take obvious joy in their reaction.

Perhaps the infamous "cockpit cam" should have been released, but the rest? the cables etc. which only served to damage international relations between America and her allies. often exposing people who had been working with America in places like Afghanistan where such co-operation if found out leads to a bullet in the head?

I'll need to wait for your criteria before I can respond to this adequately. You say that actions, motives, and consequences are determinative. What about them determines a hero?

Meanwhile though: why do you think that the "cockpit cam" should perhaps have been released?