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O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So it IS a possibility, and we're just negotiating!
    No, but I was going to say 'get thee behind me, Satan' until I realized I'd have to first be tempted. Then I wondered if that was even possible - so far, no.

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      No, but I was going to say 'get thee behind me, Satan' until I realized I'd have to first be tempted. Then I wondered if that was even possible - so far, no.
      Hot fudge - thick and gooey hot fudge.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Well you can look at it that way! I just say that God is supremely powerful...
        Omnipotence means God is all-powerful. This means God has supreme power and has no limitations. But you have claimed that God is limited in that he cannot lie. Therefore he does NOT have supreme power.

        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        And the reason He cannot lie is because He's powerful enough to impose that limitation on Himself for our good.
        That’s as ludicrous as a man pulling himself up by the straps of his own boots.
        Last edited by Tassman; 11-08-2019, 12:46 AM.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Well of course Tass, if a person believes there is a heaven to be won and a hell to be shunned that would be his dominate concern.
          IOW a “dominate concern” that takes priority over the health, prosperity, and safety of a person's community and loved ones.

          But of course this is the only life for the atheist so he would want to grab all he can in this life.
          Or, to put it in another way, giving priority to the health, prosperity, and safety of one’s community and loved ones as opposed to regarding them as secondary to eternal life with a fictional deity in an imaginary heaven.

          No Tass, there have not varied. Biblical morality is quote consistent between the Testaments.
          Your so-called morally eternal, unchanging divine laws are NOT eternal and unchanging in practice. They have varied enormously over the course of Judeo/Christian history and invariably justified by an appeal to scripture.

          But again, in your world there is no logical justification for any moral opinion
          Nor, in your world. You just cherry pick the suitable scripture passages that justify current social values, which in turn merely reflect the views of the society in which you live.

          - you might as well argue that vanilla ice cream is superior to chocolate
          OR that slave ownership is superior to the abolition of slave ownership.

          BS - show me where the social mores of the day have changed my view of Scripture.
          Who says YOUR view of scripture is the correct one? ALL Christians have believed they’ve got it right but history demonstrates that they have got it wrong. Centuries of slave ownership spring to mind.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            IOW a “dominate concern” that takes priority over the health, prosperity, and safety of a person's community and loved ones.
            You mean takes priority over what you see as important. Tell us Tass, how have you personally helped the poor and needy? I can't tell you how much my Church over the years have helped the poor with food and clothing.



            Or, to put it in another way, giving priority to the health, prosperity, and safety of one’s community and loved ones as opposed to regarding them as secondary to eternal life with a fictional deity in an imaginary heaven.
            Tass when my Church helps the needy we do not ask if they are Christian, it isn't even a consideration. But if atheism is true, the poor, like the rest of us, are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are meaningless in the end, slated for dust.


            Your so-called morally eternal, unchanging divine laws are NOT eternal and unchanging in practice. They have varied enormously over the course of Judeo/Christian history and invariably justified by an appeal to scripture.
            Yes men can and do get things wrong, or misunderstand or use even the most sublime moral teachings for our own selfish ends - but in my world universal moral truths exist, in your world they don't. You could never formulate a logical argument for any moral evil being universally wrong. Everything is culturally relative. So when you call certain Biblical laws "primitive" you are just talking out your butt. It has NO meaning.


            Who says YOUR view of scripture is the correct one? ALL Christians have believed they’ve got it right but history demonstrates that they have got it wrong. Centuries of slave ownership spring to mind.
            Who says that slavery in wrong? It certainly isn't in your world. So what are you talking about?
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              That’s as ludicrous as a man pulling himself up by the straps of his own boots.
              Yet, that's actually an acceptable expression and totally understood by those of us who actually have.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Omnipotence means God is all-powerful. This means God has supreme power and has no limitations. But you have claimed that God is limited in that he cannot lie. Therefore he does NOT have supreme power.
                Of course He has supreme power, which does not mean that He can do anything:

                Supreme:

                highest in rank or authority; paramount; sovereign; chief.
                of the highest quality, degree, character, importance, etc.:
                greatest, utmost, or extreme:
                last or final; ultimate.
                God qualifies...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Of course He has supreme power, which does not mean that He can do anything:



                  God qualifies...
                  It means that he can do anything that it is possible to do, and it is possible to lie. So, if, as you assert, he can not lie, then he not only isn't omnipotent., he is determined, no free will.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    It means that he can do anything that it is possible to do, and it is possible to lie. So, if, as you assert, he can not lie, then he not only isn't omnipotent., he is determined, no free will.
                    Again Jim, I said God is supremely powerful. I do not use the term omnipotent. Second, because He can not lie does not mean that He is determined in all areas. You by nature can not flap your arms and fly, does not mean you are totally determined? Your argument is not logical.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Hot fudge - thick and gooey hot fudge.
                      That's mean to the bug.

                      And

                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Again Jim, I said God is supremely powerful. I do not use the term omnipotent.
                        Okay, so now you've stripped god of his omnipotence.


                        Second, because He can not lie does not mean that He is determined in all areas.
                        And you know this, that god can't lie, how?

                        You by nature can not flap your arms and fly, does not mean you are totally determined? Your argument is not logical.
                        Apples and oranges, seer. We can't fly because we don't have the physical attributes to fly. God, or so you believe, has the attribute of communication. If it is impossible for him to use that attribute freely, to lie if he wanted to, then his truth telling would be determined. So, you would also argue that god can't do evil, that he can only do good, that he can only do what he ought to do, never what he ought not to do, and so the same would apply as with communication, god would basically be a determined entity, sort of like the universe. But the very idea of god doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. There is no evidence of such an entity, and even if there were, there's no evidence of his nature, or of the attributes you assign to him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          You mean takes priority over what you see as important.
                          Yes. I think the health, prosperity, and safety of my community and loved ones is more important than my own selfish, personal interests. OTOH you clearly prioritize your own escapist beliefs of eternal life.

                          Tell us Tass, how have you personally helped the poor and needy? I can't tell you how much my Church over the years have helped the poor with food and clothing.
                          If you lived in a more secular country, like those that top the Human Development and Happiness Indices, you wouldn’t require such comprehensive programs to help the poor and underprivileged. There wouldn’t be the need.

                          Tass when my Church helps the needy we do not ask if they are Christian, it isn't even a consideration.
                          See above.

                          But if atheism is true, the poor, like the rest of us, are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are meaningless in the end, slated for dust.
                          Untrue. The secular, more atheistic countries are measurably more equitable and less violent that the largely Christian USA.

                          Yes men can and do get things wrong, or misunderstand or use even the most sublime moral teachings for our own selfish ends - but in my world universal moral truths exist, in your world they don't. You could never formulate a logical argument for any moral evil being universally wrong. Everything is culturally relative.
                          Your so-called morally eternal, unchanging moral laws are nothing of the sort. They are demonstrably based upon the changing the social mores of the day and justified by an appeal to scripture. The one-time subordination of women, slave ownership and discrimination against LGBT people are examples of how social attitudes have changed. Even things like divorce and adultery are no longer considered eliminating factors for high office, as the Christian Right’s support for Donald Trump demonstrates.

                          Who says that slavery in wrong?
                          Our current social mores condemn slave-ownership, just as they now condemn witch-killing and other practices once considered acceptable.

                          It certainly isn't in your world. So what are you talking about?
                          Nor was it in YOUR world for centuries because both “worlds” are grounded in the same social values. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at a certain time in history. Morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Again Jim, I said God is supremely powerful. I do not use the term omnipotent.
                            So, God is "powerful" but he does not have unlimited power. IOW he's nearly omnipotent but not quite.

                            Second, because He can not lie does not mean that He is determined in all areas.
                            How can a supposedly eternal entity like God be "determined" in ANY area? By definition 'determinism' implies that ALL moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. So, what "preexisted" God?

                            You by nature can not flap your arms and fly, does not mean you are totally determined? Your argument is not logical.
                            None of us claim to be flying creatures, but God is claimed to be all powerful. Your argument is not logical.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              Okay, so now you've stripped god of his omnipotence.
                              It doesn't matter Jim, God is who He is. The all knowing, supremely powerful Creator.



                              And you know this, that god can't lie, how?
                              Scripture.


                              Apples and oranges, seer. We can't fly because we don't have the physical attributes to fly. God, or so you believe, has the attribute of communication. If it is impossible for him to use that attribute freely, to lie if he wanted to, then his truth telling would be determined. So, you would also argue that god can't do evil, that he can only do good, that he can only do what he ought to do, never what he ought not to do, and so the same would apply as with communication, god would basically be a determined entity, sort of like the universe. But the very idea of god doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. There is no evidence of such an entity, and even if there were, there's no evidence of his nature, or of the attributes you assign to him.
                              Jim that was not the point! Which was, that because God is determined in some areas doesn't mean that he is determined in all areas. That because His moral nature is immutable does not mean everything He does is determined. Did He have to create? Or create what He did? Did He have to create humans or angles or giraffes? Or earth or this particular kind of universe? Even with an unchangeable moral nature there are still could be a thousand freely chosen decisions.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                Yes. I think the health, prosperity, and safety of my community and loved ones is more important than my own selfish, personal interests. OTOH you clearly prioritize your own escapist beliefs of eternal life.



                                If you lived in a more secular country, like those that top the Human Development and Happiness Indices, you wouldn’t require such comprehensive programs to help the poor and underprivileged. There wouldn’t be the need.



                                See above.



                                Untrue. The secular, more atheistic countries are measurably more equitable and less violent that the largely Christian USA.



                                Your so-called morally eternal, unchanging moral laws are nothing of the sort. They are demonstrably based upon the changing the social mores of the day and justified by an appeal to scripture. The one-time subordination of women, slave ownership and discrimination against LGBT people are examples of how social attitudes have changed. Even things like divorce and adultery are no longer considered eliminating factors for high office, as the Christian Right’s support for Donald Trump demonstrates.



                                Our current social mores condemn slave-ownership, just as they now condemn witch-killing and other practices once considered acceptable.



                                Nor was it in YOUR world for centuries because both “worlds” are grounded in the same social values. Morals are simply how humans behaved under certain circumstances at a certain time in history. Morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time.

                                Tass here is the bottom line, if atheism is true none of this matters. We are insignificant creatures on an insignificant plant in an ultimately doomed universe - with no more inherent worth than a housefly. You, what we do, all our works, are ultimately meaningless - slated for dust. It makes no difference in the end if we are a Stalin or a Mother Teresa. Death is our lot. But feel free to keep spinning your wheels with your moral musings and studies remembering that they inconsequential because we are inconsequential.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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