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O’Rourke: Churches Should Lose Tax-exempt Status

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  • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
    It is YOU not answering the question. Again: “On what basis do YOU determine that a “community's moral standards are necessarily correct and worthy of conformity”?
    You're deflecting. You're trying to turn my questions back on me without answering any of them yourself, most likely because you can't answer them without twisting yourself into contradictory knots.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      You're deflecting. You're trying to turn my questions back on me without answering any of them yourself, most likely because you can't answer them without twisting yourself into contradictory knots.
      Not at all, I’ve already answered the question. Namely morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time. Hence, we’ve moved on from the ‘us v them’ tribal values of primitive times to the recognition of the values of the ‘Universal Declaration of Human Rights’…at least in the West.

      What YOU need to do is explain how your alleged god-given objective morality can change from one era to another as it has for example re witch-killing, slave ownership or the subjugation of women and much else.
      Last edited by Tassman; 10-21-2019, 11:56 PM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
        Not at all, I’ve already answered the question. Namely morals and ethics evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time. Hence, we’ve moved on from the ‘us v them’ tribal values of primitive times to the recognition of the values of the ‘Universal Declaration of Human Rights’…at least in the West.
        This conflicts with your earlier declaration that one is obligated to conform to the moral values of whatever "community" he happens to find himself in. In other words, you have no basis to say that yesterday's moral thinking is "primitive", or to imply that today's moral thinking is somehow more correct. In fact, your moral theory essentially demands that one have no firm convictions of any kind and readily accepts the status quo at any given moment, yet your arguments suggest otherwise. How do you reconcile this contradiction? Or do you not even try?

        You also haven't defined which "community" one is morally obligated to conform to. Is it one's immediate community? Local community? Regional? National? International? Global? You'll find differences in moral thinking at each level, so which should you conform to, and why?
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          This conflicts with your earlier declaration that one is obligated to conform to the moral values of whatever "community" he happens to find himself in. In other words, you have no basis to say that yesterday's moral thinking is "primitive", or to imply that today's moral thinking is somehow more correct. In fact, your moral theory essentially demands that one have no firm convictions of any kind and readily accepts the status quo at any given moment, yet your arguments suggest otherwise. How do you reconcile this contradiction? Or do you not even try?

          You also haven't defined which "community" one is morally obligated to conform to. Is it one's immediate community? Local community? Regional? National? International? Global? You'll find differences in moral thinking at each level, so which should you conform to, and why?
          Just can't give answer to the question yourself, can you, MM?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Ah, so majority rules ... might makes right ... the Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rules ... etc.
            Yes, in a Democracy, the majority rules in so far as they elect the rule makers. But that isn't necessarily what makes a thing right or wrong, what makes a thing right or wrong is the effect it has on the society and the individual members thereof.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
              Just can't give answer to the question yourself, can you, MM?
              You guys are still deflecting. I do not believe morality is defined by the "community", so there's nothing for me to answer. Even if everyone else in the world believed that it was morally right to kill one's neighbor and take his belongings, I would still have a basis to declare that it's morally wrong. You and Tass, on the other hand, have suggested that personal convictions are meaningless, and that you would be obligated to go along with the crowd.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                You guys are still deflecting. I do not believe morality is defined by the "community", so there's nothing for me to answer.
                I'm not saying it's defined by the community. I'm saying it's decided on by the community. That's what democracy is all about, MM.


                Even if everyone else in the world believed that it was morally right to kill one's neighbor and take his belongings, I would still have a basis to declare that it's morally wrong.
                The question you refuse to answer is, upon what is your declaration based?


                You and Tass, on the other hand, have suggested that personal convictions are meaningless, and that you would be obligated to go along with the crowd.
                Nope. For instance, you don't personally need to believe in abortion just because the majority does and it is legal.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                  ...what makes a thing right or wrong is the effect it has on the society and the individual members thereof.
                  And what objective standard do you use to determine whether that effect is good or bad?
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    And what objective standard do you use to determine whether that effect is good or bad?
                    I'll answer once you do, since you have avoided doing so for so long.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                      I'll answer once you do, since you have avoided doing so for so long.
                      More deflection, and we both know it's because you can't give an answer that won't lead to you chasing your tail.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        This conflicts with your earlier declaration that one is obligated to conform to the moral values of whatever "community" he happens to find himself in. In other words, you have no basis to say that yesterday's moral thinking is "primitive", or to imply that today's moral thinking is somehow more correct. In fact, your moral theory essentially demands that one have no firm convictions of any kind and readily accepts the status quo at any given moment, yet your arguments suggest otherwise. How do you reconcile this contradiction? Or do you not even try?

                        You also haven't defined which "community" one is morally obligated to conform to. Is it one's immediate community? Local community? Regional? National? International? Global? You'll find differences in moral thinking at each level, so which should you conform to, and why?
                        What YOU need to do, and haven't done despite repeated requests, is explain how your alleged god-given objective morality can change from one era to another as it has for example re witch-killing, slave ownership or the subjugation of women and much else. You are unable to do this because what is morally acceptable in any community evolves over time and biblical interpretation demonstrably evolves along with it.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          More deflection, and we both know it's because you can't give an answer that won't lead to you chasing your tail.
                          Yep, I knew you couldn't do it. The objective standard I use, is based upon reason, i.e what behaviors are by reason found, to be in the best overall interests of human beings living together in community. I know, you don't agree with that answer, but it's my answer and we can debate that further if you like. But first, now that I conceded to you and gave my answer to the question, you can give us your answer.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            The objective standard I use, is based upon reason, i.e what behaviors are by reason found, to be in the best overall interests of human beings living together in community.
                            Again Jim, as even Carp pointed out the overall best interests of a society is a subjective consideration, not an objective one.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                              The objective standard I use, is based upon reason, i.e what behaviors are by reason found, to be in the best overall interests of human beings living together in community.
                              And what objective standard do you use to decide what is "in the best overall interests of human beings living together in a community"? (I did warn you that you'd be chasing your own tail. )

                              And again, which "community" are we morally obligated to? Immediate? Local? Regional? National? International? Global?
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                                What YOU need to do, and haven't done despite repeated requests, is explain how your alleged god-given objective morality can change from one era to another as it has for example re witch-killing, slave ownership or the subjugation of women and much else. You are unable to do this because what is morally acceptable in any community evolves over time and biblical interpretation demonstrably evolves along with it.
                                More deflection. Can't say I'm surprised.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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