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Take This Impeachment And Shove It...

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Sam, are you this snooty arrogant in real life?

    FACTS ARE ----

    A) Trump has been impeached, and America pretty much yawned...
    2) There's about a ZERO % chance the Senate will remove
    C) Trump's fundraising is through the roof.

    Anything else over which you'd like to squabble?

    Say true things. Don't repeat false things, especially when shown they're false.

    I don't consider that snooty. I consider it an ethical standard.

    To the points:

    A) As many or more Americans now believe Trump should be removed from office as did during Nixon's impeachment.

    2) That speaks more to Republicans in the Senate and their lack of honesty and duty than to anything else.

    C) Trump's opponents are collecting ~3X the money collected by opposition candidates in 2011, the last time there was an incumbent election.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
      Say true things. Don't repeat false things, especially when shown they're false.

      I don't consider that snooty. I consider it an ethical standard.

      To the points:

      A) As many or more Americans now believe Trump should be removed from office as did during Nixon's impeachment.

      2) That speaks more to Republicans in the Senate and their lack of honesty and duty than to anything else.

      C) Trump's opponents are collecting ~3X the money collected by opposition candidates in 2011, the last time there was an incumbent election.

      --Sam
      A) Pretty unimpressive considering the sheer widespread (practically global) negativity about Trump and America's much more heightened awareness of this because of improved technology.
      B) That's a matter of opinion.
      C) This may be more bad news to the DNC itself and the democratic establishment and who they nominate than Trump.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
        Say true things. Don't repeat false things, especially when shown they're false.

        I don't consider that snooty. I consider it an ethical standard.

        To the points:

        A) As many or more Americans now believe Trump should be removed from office as did during Nixon's impeachment.
        Try stating facts that are relevant. SO WHAT? America is far more divided now that it was back then.

        2) That speaks more to Republicans in the Senate and their lack of honesty and duty than to anything else.
        Sure, because Schiff is a totally honorable man with no ax to grind.

        C) Trump's opponents are collecting ~3X the money collected by opposition candidates in 2011, the last time there was an incumbent election.

        --Sam
        Cool.... maybe one of them can buy the presidency.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Try stating facts that are relevant. SO WHAT? America is far more divided now that it was back then.
          True but if you look at the bottom graph here on 538 it shows that a nontrivial number of Republicans (~15%) are in favor of impeachment now and independent support is climbing and up to 45%. America is divided but the trend is clearly headed towards impeachment (and removal). There's some relevant facts :).

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DivineOb View Post
            True but if you look at the bottom graph here on 538 it shows that a nontrivial number of Republicans (~15%) are in favor of impeachment now and independent support is climbing and up to 45%. America is divided but the trend is clearly headed towards impeachment (and removal). There's some relevant facts :).
            Let me know when it reaches "overwhelming", then let me know when the Senate actually caves and agrees to convict and remove.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Let me know when it reaches "overwhelming", then let me know when the Senate actually caves and agrees to convict and remove.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Try stating facts that are relevant. SO WHAT? America is far more divided now that it was back then.



                Sure, because Schiff is a totally honorable man with no ax to grind.



                Cool.... maybe one of them can buy the presidency.

                If it's irrelevant, why continue to bring it up as a false data point? I'm not the one who keeps introducing it into discussions.

                As for polarization, that could account for the increased support for impeachment now (47% vs 38%) ... but I'm not sure it gets where you're going. Did Nixon deserve to be impeached? That seems to be an easy answer these days. So if we look back at Nixon's criminality and see a lower support for impeachment among Republicans and a higher support for impeachment among Democrats now, what does that tell us?

                Any road, I have been one to bring up public opinion polling on the matter because it's hard enough getting people focused on the factual merits. If it's all irrelevant, it costs nothing to stop using a false talking point.

                --Sam
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  If it's irrelevant, why continue to bring it up as a false data point? I'm not the one who keeps introducing it into discussions.
                  Because some of your esteemed colleagues seem to think that it somehow justifies throwing Trump out.

                  As for polarization, that could account for the increased support for impeachment now (47% vs 38%) ... but I'm not sure it gets where you're going. Did Nixon deserve to be impeached? That seems to be an easy answer these days.
                  Because there was an actual undeniable CRIME committed that nobody could dispute, reason away, excuse --- and the impeachment flowed from that the attempts to cover it up.

                  So if we look back at Nixon's criminality and see a lower support for impeachment among Republicans and a higher support for impeachment among Democrats now, what does that tell us?
                  This is not that, Sam --- Nixon's impeachment was nothing like this at all.

                  Any road, I have been one to bring up public opinion polling on the matter because it's hard enough getting people focused on the factual merits. If it's all irrelevant, it costs nothing to stop using a false talking point.

                  --Sam
                  OK, look at what you're saying....
                  I'm not the one who keeps introducing it into discussions.
                  I have been one to bring up public opinion polling on the matter because it's hard enough getting people focused on the factual merits.
                  I'm guessing you meant you have NOT been.....

                  Regardless, I really don't see the value of comparing this to Nixon's impeachment where
                  A) an actual CRIME was undeniable - nobody was saying "well, you know, those guys just stumbled into that office by accident, they didn't actually mean to BREAK in...."
                  2) nobody was weaponizing impeachment like they are now --- did ANYBODY start declaring Nixon needed to be impeached even before he was sworn in?
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Because some of your esteemed colleagues seem to think that it somehow justifies throwing Trump out.



                    Because there was an actual undeniable CRIME committed that nobody could dispute, reason away, excuse --- and the impeachment flowed from that the attempts to cover it up.



                    This is not that, Sam --- Nixon's impeachment was nothing like this at all.



                    OK, look at what you're saying....



                    I'm guessing you meant you have NOT been.....

                    Regardless, I really don't see the value of comparing this to Nixon's impeachment where
                    A) an actual CRIME was undeniable - nobody was saying "well, you know, those guys just stumbled into that office by accident, they didn't actually mean to BREAK in...."
                    2) nobody was weaponizing impeachment like they are now --- did ANYBODY start declaring Nixon needed to be impeached even before he was sworn in?
                    But Trump has committed tons of crimes! Sure there is no evidence to support it nor has Sam been able to explain why congress hasn’t bothered to charge him for it, but he committed them, honest!
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Because some of your esteemed colleagues seem to think that it somehow justifies throwing Trump out.



                      Because there was an actual undeniable CRIME committed that nobody could dispute, reason away, excuse --- and the impeachment flowed from that the attempts to cover it up.



                      This is not that, Sam --- Nixon's impeachment was nothing like this at all.



                      OK, look at what you're saying....



                      I'm guessing you meant you have NOT been.....

                      Regardless, I really don't see the value of comparing this to Nixon's impeachment where
                      A) an actual CRIME was undeniable - nobody was saying "well, you know, those guys just stumbled into that office by accident, they didn't actually mean to BREAK in...."
                      2) nobody was weaponizing impeachment like they are now --- did ANYBODY start declaring Nixon needed to be impeached even before he was sworn in?
                      Aside from the fact that Trump's impeachment polling is higher than Nixon's was, who exactly is saying polling justifies impeachment? Who exactly?

                      And while I wasn't alive during Nixon's impeachment, I've read a bit about it and the obviousness and undeniability of Nixon's criminality was very much disputed by Republicans at the time. It was, in fact, Republican voters who ended taking the longest to acknowledge the justness of impeaching Nixon.

                      So here.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • And, to reiterate:

                        Even if someone is saying that polling justifies Trump's impeachment, the question isn't "Why do you keep bringing up polling?" The question is "Why do you keep bringing up a false data point about polling when you say the correct data point is irrelevant?"

                        --Sam
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          Aside from the fact that Trump's impeachment polling is higher than Nixon's was, who exactly is saying polling justifies impeachment? Who exactly?
                          You're serious? Ox has been the primary carrier of that banner, but others have eluded to it as well.

                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          hard to believe you can take this point of view when half the country, literally, wants the man impeached and removed.

                          When more than half the country voted against him in 2016.

                          And while I wasn't alive during Nixon's impeachment,
                          I was.

                          I've read a bit about it and the obviousness and undeniability of Nixon's criminality was very much disputed by Republicans at the time.
                          No, Sam - you can't do that. I didn't say that "Nixon's criminality" was not disputed - I very specifically mentioned the burglary - the actual crime.

                          You need to go back and do some more reading on this, brother.

                          There was an ACTUAL CRIME that was absolutely indisputable, and it didn't take long for REPUBLICANS to walk into Nixon's office and tell him he needs to go.

                          repubs.jpg

                          Three leading Capitol Hill Republicans - Senate Minority Leader Hugh Scott of Pennsylvania,
                          Barry Goldwater of Arizona and House Minority Leader John Rhodes of Arizona -
                          told embattled President Richard Nixon he did not have the support to
                          survive impeachment proceedings.


                          It was, in fact, Republican voters who ended taking the longest to acknowledge the justness of impeaching Nixon.
                          I'm not quite sure what to make of that sentence.

                          So here.
                          Or this.

                          But another difference --- you didn't have 24/7 news attacking Nixon every day, day in and day out, and being, for all intents and purposes, the publicity arm of the Democratic Party.
                          Last edited by Cow Poke; 01-05-2020, 12:11 AM.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Absolutely true, but some of the lefties here keep using the "public support" numbers to justify support.
                            A) That's now how our government works
                            Oooooops! I pulled a Rogue!!!
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              ...the obviousness and undeniability of Nixon's criminality was very much disputed by Republicans at the time.
                              So, for the record, here's what I actually said... note I'm talking about the BURGLARY...

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Regardless, I really don't see the value of comparing this to Nixon's impeachment where
                              A) an actual CRIME was undeniable - nobody was saying "well, you know, those guys just stumbled into that office by accident, they didn't actually mean to BREAK in...."
                              Nixon wasn't the one who broke into the Dem's office, Sam - I'm sure you read about that.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                You're serious? Ox has been the primary carrier of that banner, but others have eluded to it as well.




                                I was.



                                No, Sam - you can't do that. I didn't say that "Nixon's criminality" was not disputed - I very specifically mentioned the burglary - the actual crime.

                                You need to go back and do some more reading on this, brother.

                                There was an ACTUAL CRIME that was absolutely indisputable, and it didn't take long for REPUBLICANS to walk into Nixon's office and tell him he needs to go.

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]41825[/ATTACH]

                                Three leading Capitol Hill Republicans - Senate Minority Leader Hugh Scott of Pennsylvania,
                                Barry Goldwater of Arizona and House Minority Leader John Rhodes of Arizona -
                                told embattled President Richard Nixon he did not have the support to
                                survive impeachment proceedings.




                                I'm not quite sure what to make of that sentence.



                                Or this.

                                But another difference --- you didn't have 24/7 news attacking Nixon every day, day in and day out, and being, for all intents and purposes, the publicity arm of the Democratic Party.
                                It took ... years for Republicans to turn on Nixon and it happened only after Nixon's unedited tapes were ordered released by SCOTUS - when Nixon released limited, edited transcripts (sound familiar?) he got Republican support:

                                Source: The Myth of Watergate Bipartisanship. Michael Conway and Jon Marshall. NYT Opinion. 2018.08.13

                                When Mr. Baker famously asked, “What did the president know, and when did he know it?” during the Watergate hearings, he meant to protect Mr. Nixon in the mistaken belief that the president didn’t know about the Watergate cover-up until many months after it occurred. The question backfired once evidence mounted that Mr. Nixon was involved in the cover-up from the start, and Mr. Baker eventually became a critic of the president.

                                After it was revealed in July 1973 that Mr. Nixon had secretly taped conversations, Mr. Ford said he found nothing wrong with the president’s practices. Republican Senator John Tower of Texas later warned Congress not to get caught up in “the hysteria of Watergate.”


                                Most congressional Republicans rallied around Mr. Nixon when the White House released edited transcripts of those tapes in April 1974 that showed Mr. Nixon scheming with his aides. As the House Judiciary Committee began debating possible impeachment in July, Representative Delbert Latta of Ohio said the evidence failed to prove Mr. Nixon’s direct involvement in Watergate.


                                Mr. Latta and most other Republicans on the Judiciary Committee voted against all articles of impeachment on July 27-30, 1974. Eleven of 17 Republicans voted against the obstruction-of-justice article, 10 of 17 opposed the abuse-of-power resolution, and 15 of 17 voted against the article based on the president’s refusal to produce tapes in response to the committee’s subpoenas.


                                More Republicans abandoned Mr. Nixon on the obstruction-of-justice charge only after he complied with the Supreme Court’s order on Aug. 5, releasing the “smoking gun” tapes that proved he had ordered a cover-up of the Watergate crimes. Still, many party members of the Judiciary Committee later filed reports arguing that Mr. Nixon was innocent of two of the three articles of impeachment sent to the full House.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                So, no. The criminality of Nixon was not immediately recognized by Republican politicians or voters. And even at the height of support for Nixon's removal, almost 40% polled did not think Nixon should be removed from office. If, as you claim, Nixon's criminality was "not disputed" then that's a pretty damning indictment of that 40%!

                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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