Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Elizabeth Warren's Pregnant Pause

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    So you mean this post



    Honestly, I think that was pretty much an on the mark description of where you were hailing from in that specific exchange. It wasn't meant to be literal however, just descriptive of the irrational approach you and others take when excusing Trumps actions. If trump is doing it, it is ok. If someone else did it, especially a Democrat, then it would be bad.

    As general rule, it hits it right on the head.



    Jim
    How can that be true if the argument that I made was Trump is bad, but Clinton is worse? Wouldn’t that be a blunt acknowledgement that Trump had faults and flaws and pretty big ones at that? Thus I’m dead right about you, you’re incapable of having an honest conversation about Trump because you can’t even be bothered to understand your opponents and accuse them of falsehoods and you lie to yourself and convince yourself that your falsehoods, are truth. You are acting just like JM or Jorge and too blinded by anger to see it. Truly sad because you’re obviously smart enough to make a decent case against Trump. It’s too bad you’ve cast him as your supervillain and anyone disagreeing with you as mindless henchmen.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      * treats his opponents like trash, is shocked when the favor is returned*

      What’s the problem Sam, don’t like the taste of the nastiness you’ve been subjecting others to? The problem with the polls is obvious, they were almost all wrong about their predictions.
      I haven't treated anyone like trash, of course. But you and a few others have consistently reverted to jabbing and insulting others routinely over the years; if anyone is going to legitimately complain about my posting, I'm afraid you've disqualified yourself from that privilege.

      But my point is proven, regardless: I've now explained, at length, why your contention about polls is both wrong on the merits (the polls weren't "wrong", in the sense that they were close to the final percentage) and wrong in concept (polls don't "predict" anything, much less things they are not directly about [popular vote vs. EC]). Despite this, and with absolutely no substantive counter-arguments, you have simply failed to absorb any information and are just restating your original position.

      Trying to move onto explaining a more complicated topic would not be a good use of time or energy.

      --Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        How can that be true if the argument that I made was Trump is bad, but Clinton is worse? Wouldn’t that be a blunt acknowledgement that Trump had faults and flaws and pretty big ones at that? Thus I’m dead right about you, you’re incapable of having an honest conversation about Trump because you can’t even be bothered to understand your opponents and accuse them of falsehoods and you lie to yourself and convince yourself that your falsehoods, are truth. You are acting just like JM or Jorge and too blinded by anger to see it. Truly sad because you’re obviously smart enough to make a decent case against Trump. It’s too bad you’ve cast him as your supervillain and anyone disagreeing with you as mindless henchmen.
        I think that we probably are not going to agree here.

        Jim
        He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          I haven't treated anyone like trash, of course. But you and a few others have consistently reverted to jabbing and insulting others routinely over the years; if anyone is going to legitimately complain about my posting, I'm afraid you've disqualified yourself from that privilege.

          But my point is proven, regardless: I've now explained, at length, why your contention about polls is both wrong on the merits (the polls weren't "wrong", in the sense that they were close to the final percentage) and wrong in concept (polls don't "predict" anything, much less things they are not directly about [popular vote vs. EC]). Despite this, and with absolutely no substantive counter-arguments, you have simply failed to absorb any information and are just restating your original position.

          Trying to move onto explaining a more complicated topic would not be a good use of time or energy.

          --Sam
          Yeah you have Sam. You casted you’re opponents as evil, hate filled people, that hate immigrants and you as the pure hearted True ChristianTM, that is just too good for us. I’m not stupid Sam and see the set up, there’s a range of positions in there. You were being nasty.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Yeah you have Sam. You casted you’re opponents as evil, hate filled people, that hate immigrants and you as the pure hearted True ChristianTM, that is just too good for us. I’m not stupid Sam and see the set up, there’s a range of positions in there. You were being nasty.
            I believe you've spent a number of posts now chastising Jim for misconstruing you -- you'll not find a single post of mine where I've attributed the attitude of people here defending or disregarding these anti-immigration (anti-legal immigration, to clarify for Rogue's benefit) as hate-filled. In my personal opinion, the underlying motive is more often fear.

            But that's all inconsequential. The fact remains that these policies are cruel, unnecessary for American prosperity or security, and deeply antithetical to the Gospel. Your efforts here have been to obscure that by throwing chaff, and pretending to litigate issues you have no real interest in considering.

            And that falls below the standard, regardless of who else does or does not meet it.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
              I believe you've spent a number of posts now chastising Jim for misconstruing you -- you'll not find a single post of mine where I've attributed the attitude of people here defending or disregarding these anti-immigration (anti-legal immigration, to clarify for Rogue's benefit) as hate-filled. In my personal opinion, the underlying motive is more often fear....
              I really don't think it's fear in many cases, Sam, but a sense of "we are a nation of laws". About a third of our mission clients are Hispanic, and I often hear "we got here the legal way, why should anybody cut in line".

              And, yeah, I realize the whole asylum seeking thing is messed up, but a whole 'nuther part of that is the fact that our local liberal Churches have actually hired legals to advise illegal aliens what to say to make a case for "I'm afraid I'll get killed if I get sent back to my country".

              I think neither party wants to actually accomplish comprehensive immigration policy, because they both want it as a political football.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I really don't think it's fear in many cases, Sam, but a sense of "we are a nation of laws". About a third of our mission clients are Hispanic, and I often hear "we got here the legal way, why should anybody cut in line".

                And, yeah, I realize the whole asylum seeking thing is messed up, but a whole 'nuther part of that is the fact that our local liberal Churches have actually hired legals to advise illegal aliens what to say to make a case for "I'm afraid I'll get killed if I get sent back to my country".

                I think neither party wants to actually accomplish comprehensive immigration policy, because they both want it as a political football.
                Your not wrong per se. But a hostile, abusive response to those issues is just wrong. What you are describing is taking out our internal squabbles on poor people desperate to find a better life. It doesn't matter who is 'right' internally, we cant fight our internal disagreements over the bodies or children of people that are poor and suffering.

                Jim
                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Your not wrong per se. But a hostile, abusive response to those issues is just wrong.
                  What hostile abusive response?

                  What you are describing is taking out our internal squabbles on poor people desperate to find a better life.
                  No, I'm not.

                  It doesn't matter who is 'right' internally, we cant fight our internal disagreements over the bodies or children of people that are poor and suffering.
                  So, maybe it's time both sides actually put some of their effort into actually working the problem.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    What hostile abusive response?
                    Ok, clearly you are not interested in an honest conversation on the issue.
                    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Ok, clearly you are not interested in an honest conversation on the issue.
                      Why, because I simply asked for clarification? Come on, Jim... be reasonable.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Why, because I simply asked for clarification? Come on, Jim... be reasonable.
                        I don't understand why you have to get like this, Jim --- I haven't been the least bit confrontational or disagreeable with you.
                        I didn't know what you referring to, so I did what I thought was the decent thing -- I ASKED.

                        I thought maybe you thought *I* had said something that indicated a "hostile, abusive response to those issues" - your words.

                        This is not the first time you've responded like this to me, and there's no call for it at all.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I really don't think it's fear in many cases, Sam, but a sense of "we are a nation of laws". About a third of our mission clients are Hispanic, and I often hear "we got here the legal way, why should anybody cut in line".

                          And, yeah, I realize the whole asylum seeking thing is messed up, but a whole 'nuther part of that is the fact that our local liberal Churches have actually hired legals to advise illegal aliens what to say to make a case for "I'm afraid I'll get killed if I get sent back to my country".

                          I think neither party wants to actually accomplish comprehensive immigration policy, because they both want it as a political football.

                          My read is that for many -- even most -- people, it's about fear. That's where the "great replacement" theory that many (including folks on this forum) have espoused: that immigrants are changing what America "is" and will vote to "fundamentally alter" our "culture". It's why folks on the right are obsessed with "millions of illegal aliens" voting, no matter how many times this is shown to be completely false. It's why legal immigration keeps getting lumped in with illegal immigration on virtually every discussion and why people keep defending racist immigration enforcement that uses ethnicity as a means to determine who gets stopped and asked for papers. The inclusion of shutting down refugee resettlement is the perfect case-study in this: the people who should be most vocal about providing safe harbor to people fleeing violence are often silent or downright hostile to it; they invent plenty of reasons that don't check out on the merits ... but they haven't even bothered to learn about the merits. Refugees, asylum-seekers, green card-holders -- all have been swept up in Trump's anti-immigration policies for three years now, with no significant cost from Republicans or his base -- the same people who say they're against illegal but not legal immigration.

                          Regarding immigration attorneys: these are already people who have passed their credible fear test. Now they have to go and make their case to an immigration judge in a foreign country with a non-native language and byzantine asylum laws. Why wouldn't we expect them to have an attorney who can advise them on making their best case? Wouldn't you want an attorney if you were facing a deportation hearing, even with "home field advantage"?

                          Democrats and Republicans in the Senate passed an immigration bill with strong bi-partisan support. Republicans in the House refused to bring it to a vote, knowing that it had the votes to pass and that Obama would sign it. Several reasons for that but the biggest one was that Bohener et al. got spooked when Cantor lost his safe seat to an anti-immigration primary challenger. There's exactly one party -- and, more specifically, exactly one voting bloc -- that has prevented meaningful immigration reform from passing ... and it's that same bloc of white, Evangelical conservatives mentioned above.

                          That ain't right, it ain't pretty, and I wish it wasn't so. But that's what we're dealing with and we have to see it clearly.

                          --Sam
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Why, because I simply asked for clarification? Come on, Jim... be reasonable.
                            No, because you know what the effect of these policies has been in terms of forced separations of families, sometimes the complete loss of records or information about how to reunite children with their parents. You know about people who are under threat of death but the excessive and poorly thought out policies of this administration actually block them from seeking asylum. And you know about the attempt to get rid of medical visas where children here for life sustaining medical treatment were told they had to leave in spite of the fact they'd likely die.

                            You know about all that, yet you play the game of 'what hostile response'

                            Hence you are not interested in honest discussion of the issues.

                            Jim
                            He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              I believe you've spent a number of posts now chastising Jim for misconstruing you -- you'll not find a single post of mine where I've attributed the attitude of people here defending or disregarding these anti-immigration (anti-legal immigration, to clarify for Rogue's benefit) as hate-filled. In my personal opinion, the underlying motive is more often fear.

                              But that's all inconsequential. The fact remains that these policies are cruel, unnecessary for American prosperity or security, and deeply antithetical to the Gospel. Your efforts here have been to obscure that by throwing chaff, and pretending to litigate issues you have no real interest in considering.

                              And that falls below the standard, regardless of who else does or does not meet it.

                              --Sam
                              You’ve gone from, “My opponents are evil psychopaths, that want brown people to die.” To, “My opponents are afraid of brown people.” Guess this is closest admission we’ll get to you might not be 100% correct. That’s quite an admission, so congrats!

                              In reality land, my points are backed by the evidence. There really are people that are not fleeing violence of their homeland, but using the situation to get in anyway. There really are criminal elements using the situation to sneak in drugs and traffic in humans. The government programs really are overwhelmed with the 1 million+ coming in every single year. You’re welcome to prove anything I said as wrong, but you won’t. You’ll just switch between calling me an evil psychopath to being fear driven. Thus why it’s pointless to even bother with you.
                              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 10-19-2019, 09:18 AM.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                I think that we probably are not going to agree here.

                                Jim
                                Of course not because you’re bearing a false witness and refusing to accept correction.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Esther, Yesterday, 12:09 PM
                                29 responses
                                163 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post mikewhitney  
                                Started by Gondwanaland, 11-25-2020, 01:42 PM
                                50 responses
                                263 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Andius
                                by Andius
                                 
                                Started by Ronson, 11-25-2020, 11:16 AM
                                11 responses
                                92 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Juvenal, 11-25-2020, 04:13 AM
                                14 responses
                                68 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Terraceth  
                                Started by shunyadragon, 11-24-2020, 06:20 PM
                                22 responses
                                139 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Working...
                                X