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  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
    The standard being set for you is not "Host immigrants in your home" -- though if you are presented the opportunity and have the means, you probably should.

    The standard is that we, as Christians, need to advocate for immigrants fleeing danger and violence, seeking their welcome and safety in America, where we have plenty. Maybe that involves considerable time or financial donation for some Christians, maybe not -- what and how far God calls each varies -- but it unquestionably involves supporting a kind and welcoming immigration policy and opposing cruel and ineffectual policies like family separation or Remain in Mexico or metering or "expedited" asylum hearings that deny asylum seekers their due process.

    Christian ethics, in other words, demands at least the minimum from you when it comes to civic engagement.

    --Sam
    Note Sam keeps dodging what I kept asking him, which is:

    How do you plan on dealing with the criminal elements, using the crisis to their advantage?

    Berating your fellow Christians vs answering legitimate issues is quite a bit easier.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      ah - so no specifics, just a lot of raggin'. Ok. Whatever makes you happy.

      Jim
      Let me know when you move beyond gotta games and making up things to attack your fellow Christians for and I’ll take you more seriously. It’s really a shame, you could get some decent arguments, if you were not trying to act like the Jorge of civics and just throw around blind accusations against your fellow Christians.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Let me know when you move beyond gotta games and making up things to attack your fellow Christians for and I’ll take you more seriously. It’s really a shame, you could get some decent arguments, if you were not trying to act like the Jorge of civics and just throw around blind accusations against your fellow Christians.
        The only person 'playing games' is you as best I can tell. You've made an accusation, but you won't provide information that allows me to even know what you are talking about. I have no idea what you are talking about. So, until you provide information that defines what it is you are talking about other than 'you accused somebody of something sometime' then - as far as I can tell - you are just blowing smoke and trying to detract from the subject at hand.

        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-18-2019, 01:51 PM.
        He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          The only person 'playing games'. You've made an accusation, but you won't provide information that allows me to even know what you are talking about. I have no idea what you are talking about. So, until you provide information that defines what it is you are talking about other than 'you accused somebody of something' then - as far as I can tell - you are just blowing smoke and trying to detract from the subject at hand.

          Jim
          You would know what is going on, if you paid attention:

          You have falsely accused me of things that are not true and falsely attributed positions to me that I do not hold to.

          When told the correct information and told to retract, you avoid it.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            You would know what is going on, if you paid attention:

            You have falsely accused me of things that are not true and falsely attributed positions to me that I do not hold to.

            When told the correct information and told to retract, you avoid it.
            But you can't produce any information to establish this nebulous accusation. Look, unless you can produce an actual instance that I can respond to, then you are just trolling, or lying. So it's your choice. But if you don't stop, and you won't back up your accusation with some sort of actual reference to the event you have in mind, then I'll just report you to the moderators as harassing.

            Bottom line, put up or shut up.


            Jim
            He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              So the answer to:

              What are you doing, beyond berating your fellow Christians, for daring to disagree with you, is:

              Nothing.

              Thanks for playing.
              If you cared at all about the issue, I believe I made the point clearly:

              "If you want to help refugees and asylum seekers so much, why aren't you doing [X]?"

              "Doing [X] isn't how those programs are actually run and isn't best practice for asylum seekers or refugees."

              "Hah! You're not doing [X] and that means you're doing nothing!"


              It doesn't take a genius to see the logical flaw in that, only someone who cares about the issue being discussed. Even if it were true that I'm doing nothing to advocate for asylum seekers and refugee families, that wouldn't absolve you or anyone else for doing nothing (or worse than nothing by supporting and defending the policies and politicians enacting those policies).

              The only course you're pursuing here is to throw up a wall of indignation so you don't have to confront what we're doing with these anti-Christian, anti-American, xenophobic policies.

              --Sam
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Any real consequences? I have a few of those myself. Almost took off a friend's ear and started a bush fire in a public park trying to see what happens when you launch an estes model rocket engine with fins glued to it and no launch rod or pad. We got the fire out before it grew to criminal proportions. The idea was if you take away the weight of rocket holding the engine, it will go REALLY high ...

                Amazing we survived - isn't it
                Well, after my mother made sure I was safe and sound, she gave me the whoopin' of my life. I mean, it was like ENDLESS!!!

                Funny though, I was visiting a friend, and his Dad worked at a motel on the shore of Lake Erie. We were hanging out there. People would routinely launch off the beach in truck inner tubes and float about.

                Roy and I decided we'd paddle on over to Canada for the day, visit a bit, then paddle on back to the US. We figured Canada was "just over the horizon". WHO KNEW it was so far!!!

                When we lost sight of the US Coast, and couldn't yet see Canada, we got concerned. The sun was pretty much directly overhead, so we had no idea what direction we were going.

                Then it occurred to me that Niagara Falls was on one end of the lake, and could just imagine getting swept over. The other thought -- were there SHARKS in Lake Erie? I had no idea, but imagined there must be.

                Long story short, as the sun was setting (finally knew where "West" was, for all the good that did us) we heard the blast of a ship's horn, then a big white US Coast Guard Cutter came into view, and they launched a boat to collect us and bring us on board. It was GREAT - they warmed us up, gave us some food and drink, showed us around the ship...

                Somebody on shore had seen us disappear over the horizon, and called the USCG - and I'm sure glad they did!

                So, yeah, when I got home, momma was so glad to see me, she kissed and hugged me, then whooped the living crap out of me. Love is a strange thing.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  But you can't produce any information to establish this nebulous accusation. Look, unless you can produce an actual instance that I can respond to, then you are just trolling, or lying. So it's your choice. But if you don't stop, and you won't back up your accusation with some sort of actual reference to the event you have in mind, then I'll just report you to the moderators as harassing.

                  Bottom line, put up or shut up.


                  Jim
                  Yeah I can Jim.

                  1. You falsely accused me of excusing hate when my position on emotions actually was emotions are neutral, it is what we chose to do with them and how we choose to act upon them is what determines if they are good. I told you this for days, than you claimed I didn’t.

                  2. You falsely accused me of not ‘seeing the flaws of Trump’ even when the very argument I made was that as bad as Trump can be, Clinton is worse.

                  Do I need to produce quotes and post numbers too?
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    If you cared at all about the issue, I believe I made the point clearly:

                    "If you want to help refugees and asylum seekers so much, why aren't you doing [X]?"

                    "Doing [X] isn't how those programs are actually run and isn't best practice for asylum seekers or refugees."

                    "Hah! You're not doing [X] and that means you're doing nothing!"


                    It doesn't take a genius to see the logical flaw in that, only someone who cares about the issue being discussed. Even if it were true that I'm doing nothing to advocate for asylum seekers and refugee families, that wouldn't absolve you or anyone else for doing nothing (or worse than nothing by supporting and defending the policies and politicians enacting those policies).

                    The only course you're pursuing here is to throw up a wall of indignation so you don't have to confront what we're doing with these anti-Christian, anti-American, xenophobic policies.

                    --Sam
                    Sam ignored the question of:

                    What do you do about those taking advantage of the situation?

                    Dodging it, won’t make it go away nor will berating those asking these questions either. I have a perfectly valid right to ask this stuff. Throwing out false accusations, doesn’t help your position any.
                    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 10-18-2019, 02:26 PM.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      There is nothing in line with the scriptural concepts Sam referenced that is in between "get out of here you filthy immigrant" and "oh, please, please, PLEASE come live with me"?


                      Jim
                      You don't think the "get out of here you filthy immigrant" isn't a bit of a straw man. That it represents the view of those who think it is important for a country to be able to control their borders?

                      The fact is nearly everybody I know who is upset with illegal immigration has little to no problem with legal immigration.

                      Moreover, I think it is only fair to ask those who take a holier than thou self-righteous position to walk the walk rather than give us the usual "do as I say not as I do." They ought to lead by example. So asking how many illegals that they have helped move into their home seems quite fair.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Yeah I can Jim.

                        1. You falsely accused me of excusing hate when my position on emotions actually was emotions are neutral, it is what we chose to do with them and how we choose to act upon them is what determines if they are good. I told you this for days, than you claimed I didn’t.
                        It wasn't a false accusation Pix. It is what you were saying. I can't help it if you don't know how to express yourself. Initially you were justifying hate as part of our war effort in WWII, that's not just having the emotion, that is acting on it. Then you went on to try to say God expresses hate in scripture so hate must be justifiable sometimes. And in those references, God's judgement is evident, so He was definitely acting on it. But you gradually moved away from these initial, unsupportable positions and eventually either changed your position or finally figured out how to say something more in line with what you claim you meant all along above. I don't know what to make of that pix, BUT, once you finally found your voice on the topic I did NOT accuse you of changing your mind, I simply said if that is what you mean then you have no argument from me.

                        I don't owe you an apology for the pix. That was just you being clumsy in how you made your point (at best).

                        2. You falsely accused me of not ‘seeing the flaws of Trump’ even when the very argument I made was that as bad as Trump can be, Clinton is worse.
                        Do I need to produce quotes and post numbers too?
                        For #2, yes. I need an actual specific context. That is far to general, and could apply to a large number of conversations in a perverted sort of way, most of which I'd argue the point is valid. So produce your example and we can see if you have a point or you are just grasping at straws.


                        Jim
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-18-2019, 02:35 PM.
                        He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          You don't think the "get out of here you filthy immigrant" isn't a bit of a straw man. That it represents the view of those who think it is important for a country to be able to control their borders?

                          The fact is nearly everybody I know who is upset with illegal immigration has little to no problem with legal immigration.

                          Moreover, I think it is only fair to ask those who take a holier than thou self-righteous position to walk the walk rather than give us the usual "do as I say not as I do." They ought to lead by example. So asking how many illegals that they have helped move into their home seems quite fair.

                          We have only concerned ourselves here with legal immigration: asylum and refugee resettlement. Family separation, indefinite detention, Remain in Mexico, and metering are all methods of deterring legal immigration. So people who keep conflating that with illegal immigration end up telling on themselves.

                          I've said it before and I don't know how many times it needs repeating: best practices for resettling refugees or asylum seekers is not to host them in random peoples' houses. Providing them access to their own domiciles is best practice. That people continue to ignorantly assume that refugees and asylum seekers have to be hosted reflects on how little they're engaged in the topic.

                          A better question would be "What are you doing to support asylum seeking families and refugees in your area?" and I'd be happy to answer that to someone who was sincerely looking to advance a conversation. But what we have here, as in previous conversations recently, is one or more people who don't care about the morality of what's happening to asylum seeking families and refugees but rather want a reason -- any reason -- to shrug off any sense of responsibility or even ethical discomfort.

                          --Sam
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            It wasn't a false accusation Pix. It is what you were saying. I can't help it if you don't know how to express yourself. Initially you were justifying hate as part of our war effort in WWII, that's not just having the emotion, that is acting on it. Then you went on to try to say God expresses hate in scripture so hate must be justifiable sometimes. And in those references, God's judgement is evident, so He was definitely acting on it. But you gradually moved away from these initial, unsupportable positions and eventually either changed your position or finally figured out how to say something more in line with what you claim you meant all along above. I don't know what to make of that pix, BUT, once you finally found your voice on the topic I did NOT accuse you of changing your mind, I simply said if that is what you mean then you have no argument from me.

                            I don't owe you an apology for the pix. That was just you being clumsy in how you made your point (at best).
                            Nope, I literally made the point days before than when I again repost, almost word for word what I said days before. You than acted as though that was something new. Do you want the quotes and post numbers that prove it?

                            For #2, yes. I need an actual specific context. That is far to general, and could apply to a large number of conversations in a perverted sort of way, most of which I'd argue the point is valid. So produce your example and we can see if you have a point or you are just grasping at straws.
                            So do you deny this?
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              We have only concerned ourselves here with legal immigration: asylum and refugee resettlement. Family separation, indefinite detention, Remain in Mexico, and metering are all methods of deterring legal immigration. So people who keep conflating that with illegal immigration end up telling on themselves.

                              I've said it before and I don't know how many times it needs repeating: best practices for resettling refugees or asylum seekers is not to host them in random peoples' houses. Providing them access to their own domiciles is best practice. That people continue to ignorantly assume that refugees and asylum seekers have to be hosted reflects on how little they're engaged in the topic.

                              A better question would be "What are you doing to support asylum seeking families and refugees in your area?" and I'd be happy to answer that to someone who was sincerely looking to advance a conversation. But what we have here, as in previous conversations recently, is one or more people who don't care about the morality of what's happening to asylum seeking families and refugees but rather want a reason -- any reason -- to shrug off any sense of responsibility or even ethical discomfort.

                              --Sam
                              And ummm, how do we provide these houses and keep track of them all, while being processed through?

                              The problem is you Sam, I don’t care for self righteous, moral preening, from someone playing gotta games.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • And pay attention to what gets labeled sanctimonious or holier-than-thou or self-righteous here:

                                This is about people who are fleeing (or desperate to flee) violence being rejected and consigned to live and die in a camp or a failed state or a gang-controlled neighborhood where they've been credibly threatened with torture or death. If you think it's holier-than-thou to forcibly hold that turning those people away back to gangs or kidnapping their children with no intent on reunification is immoral and anti-Christian ...

                                ... well, there's no holiness at all in that. What are you fighting for? Who are you fighting for? What point is there whining about Christian persecution through anti-discrimination laws or taxes if your Christianity doesn't even blanch at refugees and asylum seekers being abused, imprisoned, and turned away?


                                --Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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