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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    You can't accurately judge a president until he's been out of office because you don't know everything he'll do until then, and you can't always judge him accurately for a few decades because (i) many documents won't be available before then and (ii) presidential-level decisions can have long-term consequences that won't necessarily be apparent in the short term.

    However, there aren't any cases where presidents judged to be among the worst during their term in office were later judged to be among the best.
    Not true!!! What about Jimmy Car.....



    nevermind
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I have to admit, I thought Sam presented himself as less biased. I admit I was wrong.
      He used to try - apparently sincerely. His tone falls into that old pattern sometimes which makes him confusing for those of us who knew him when. Also makes the occasional back stab worse - you don't see it coming (this is probably not purposeful).
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
        That's a decision within your right to make. I would urge, however, that it be kept a private decision if you're not willing to put work behind such a public accusation.

        --Sam
        There's no need to prove the sun is shining - the blatantly obvious can be stated at face value.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          You can't accurately judge a president until he's been out of office because you don't know everything he'll do until then, and you can't always judge him accurately for a few decades because (i) many documents won't be available before then and (ii) presidential-level decisions can have long-term consequences that won't necessarily be apparent in the short term.

          However, there aren't any cases where presidents judged to be among the worst during their term in office were later judged to be among the best.
          Um, Nixon.


          More on point: Adams, Cleveland
          Last edited by Teallaura; 10-14-2019, 11:34 AM.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
            You can't accurately judge a president until he's been out of office because you don't know everything he'll do until then, and you can't always judge him accurately for a few decades because (i) many documents won't be available before then and (ii) presidential-level decisions can have long-term consequences that won't necessarily be apparent in the short term.

            However, there aren't any cases where presidents judged to be among the worst during their term in office were later judged to be among the best.
            *cough* Truman, Lincoln *cough*
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Um, Nixon.


              More on point: Adams, Cleveland
              Truman, Lincoln, etc.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                *cough* Truman, Lincoln *cough*
                Lincoln is an interesting case. A lot of libertarians put him among the worst because he suspended habeas corpus. I have seen multiple Christians from TWeb alone make the argument.

                I put Truman in my bottom three because I don't think nuking civilians is ever justified, no matter how much you dress it up in war strategy.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  He used to try - apparently sincerely. His tone falls into that old pattern sometimes which makes him confusing for those of us who knew him when. Also makes the occasional back stab worse - you don't see it coming (this is probably not purposeful).
                  I'd say that I'm much the same as before, taking the same amount of care to limit the scope of my arguments and lay out reasons and evidence. It seems, from my perspective, that it's folks on the right (here & elsewhere) who have shifted a great distance from where they were in 2008 or even 2012 ... or, heck, even 2016.

                  I'd put that down to the cognitive dissonance required of being part of the conservative movement in the Trump era. Or, even further, the accelerating pace of ideological shift on the right in the aftermath of the Great Recession. But, whatever the reason, I've moved my principles far less than those who seek to normalize Trump's cruel policies regarding immigrants or his corrupt attempts to corrode our democratic institutions for his personal and public profit.

                  All motion is relative.


                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    I'd say that I'm much the same as before, taking the same amount of care to limit the scope of my arguments and lay out reasons and evidence. It seems, from my perspective, that it's folks on the right (here & elsewhere) who have shifted a great distance from where they were in 2008 or even 2012 ... or, heck, even 2016.

                    I'd put that down to the cognitive dissonance required of being part of the conservative movement in the Trump era. Or, even further, the accelerating pace of ideological shift on the right in the aftermath of the Great Recession. But, whatever the reason, I've moved my principles far less than those who seek to normalize Trump's cruel policies regarding immigrants or his corrupt attempts to corrode our democratic institutions for his personal and public profit.

                    All motion is relative.


                    --Sam
                    You're not - and it's more than just the change that everyone experiences with time. You were a lot more trustworthy and fair back then.

                    Even when you were annoying the daylights out of me, you weren't nasty back then.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      I've moved my principles far less than those who seek to normalize Trump's cruel policies regarding immigrants or his corrupt attempts to corrode our democratic institutions for his personal and public profit.
                      The fact that you don't even recognize this as begging the question is part of the problem.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                        You're not - and it's more than just the change that everyone experiences with time. You were a lot more trustworthy and fair back then.

                        Even when you were annoying the daylights out of me, you weren't nasty back then.
                        I wouldn't say I've been nasty now ... perhaps you're simply defending positions that are just more indefensible and more abhorrent?

                        --Sam
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          I wouldn't say I've been nasty now ... perhaps you're simply defending positions that are just more indefensible and more abhorrent?

                          --Sam
                          Case in point - straight to nasty. That's something you never used to do.
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            Case in point - straight to nasty. That's something you never used to do.
                            I don't find the argument "Trump has 6A rights in an impeachment hearing" defensible, just as a matter of law and history. I don't find defense of the fact that the Trump administration separated immigrant children from their parents with no plan for reunification anything less than abhorrent.

                            If you find that nasty, you're ascribing my opinion of certain policies to your own identity. Which you can do, I guess, but that's not me being nasty toward you; it's you identifying with indefensible and abhorrent things!

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              I don't find the argument "Trump has 6A rights in an impeachment hearing" defensible, just as a matter of law and history. I don't find defense of the fact that the Trump administration separated immigrant children from their parents with no plan for reunification anything less than abhorrent.

                              If you find that nasty, you're ascribing my opinion of certain policies to your own identity. Which you can do, I guess, but that's not me being nasty toward you; it's you identifying with indefensible and abhorrent things!

                              --Sam
                              Right - can't win the argument, so attack the person and be as mean spirited and nasty as you can so no one notices you lost.

                              Sad, Sam - truly sad. Perfectly proves my point, unfortunately - you used to be able to argue fairly now all you do is express opinion and then use cruelty when others don't agree. And when we tell you what we see, you deflect by bringing up extraneous points and tossing all the mud you can.

                              Someday, when you look in a mirror, you'll find the abhorrent one is you - by your own choice.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Right - can't win the argument, so attack the person and be as mean spirited and nasty as you can so no one notices you lost.
                                You did read the part where he said: "If you find that nasty, you're ascribing my opinion of certain policies to your own identity."? If so, then why do you claim it is an attack on the person?
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

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