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  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
    A better scenario would be where you think that Trump has done something for which he's attacked unfairly and I can respond whether I've defended him or jumped in for the attack or simply ignored the noise. Honestly, we've forgotten so many actual Trump scandals (whatever happened with that GSA Trump international decision?) that it's difficult to even remember non-events.

    One thing I can recall: the Trump administration's decision to back off from demanding North Korea denuclearize in exchange for talks and relief. While Trump gets taken to task for his change in rhetoric and broken campaign promises (legitimately), nuclearization was a decades-long problem that got dumped into Trump's lap at the beginning of his term -- he wasn't going to stop North Korea from becoming a nuclear power and no US president in the near future is going to make NK give up is nuclear weapons. So Trump gets some unfair heat for his administration's failure to prevent/eradicate NK's nuclear arsenal.

    But, no, Trump's not trying the best he can to fulfill the responsibilities and great expectations of the presidency. He has, more than any other president in modern history, turned the executive branch into an extension of his own desires and animus. And that's so evident, I think, with so many examples of wrongdoing and self-serving action, that I just don't think someone can objectively follow American politics and see Trump as more or less on the same level as past presidents, Republican or Democrat. We're just dealing with someone and something very different here.

    In any case, the answer to that problem isn't to simply decry partisanship but to show how a given event or issue should break down on objective means. Yes, we all harbor bias -- but holding bias isn't fate. We can, and should, subject those biases to scrutiny and challenge and work to make sure that our opinions stem from justified and warranted beliefs.

    --Sam
    Part of this is that there's so much "I HATE TRUMP" mentality that the accusations go even beyond the stupid/jackass things he does. If the TrumpHaters simply stuck to what Trump has actually done, they'd have plenty to talk about, and there's a whole lot for which I wouldn't even try to defend Trump. As I've stated numerous times, I wish somebody would take his Twitter account from him, but there's no need to make up stuff.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
      You're just going round in circles, Jim.

      Trump's history of telling nothing but lies justifies your consistent cynicism and interpretation of what he says in a poor light. When he's misquoted or misrepresented (it does happen) you can't see it, because you expect Trump to always lie, be egomaniacal etc. Why do you expect that? Because that's what Trump does. How do you know that's what he does? Because he always lies, boasts, exaggerates, etc etc.

      You're probably at least partially correct that some people who support Trump get sucked into his rhetoric. How come you can't consider the idea that many of those who oppose Trump are sucked into anti-Trump rhetoric? That he's not as good as his supporters think, and not as bad as his political and media opponents would have us believe?





      Here's an example from the Independent (British newspaper)

      Headline on front page: "Trump rages at Fox News after poll shows majority want him impeached"

      Note the loaded term: "rages"

      Before we've read the story, we're already being given the impression that Trump is angry, out of control, and very upset with the poll result. If we don't read the story, that's the impression we're likely to take away. Trump is out of control angry, presumably because he's threatened by the idea of impeachment.

      First line of the story, Trump "... has vented his anger at Fox News..." . Again the idea is that he's angry and expressing it forcefully (it's an intense emotion that has been kept bottled up but now is vented). But note that it's a step down from "Trump rages"

      After a line about the poll results, the story continues, saying that Trump "...made his displeasure clear with the network...". Note that this is a fair bit more neutral than "Trump rages". Why? Because the actual data doesn't support the claim.

      What did Trump actually say? Nothing. There is no footage of him 'raging' at Fox. No verbal quotes, nothing.


      The story is based off a Twitter tweet, which is quoted as: "From the day I announced I was running for President, I have NEVER had a good @FoxNews Poll," and "Whoever their Pollster is, they suck. But @FoxNews is also much different than it used to be in the good old days."

      Note that the actual tweet(s) itself isn't posted, so it is possible that context or some wording has been omitted. Note that the claim of 'rage' in the headline is not supported by the quotes given. The whole article could be rewritten with the idea that 'Trump is disappointed that he doesn't poll better on Fox News polling', and be just as supported (more supported, actually) by the facts (two unsourced tweet quotes).

      The whole article is hot trash: a clickbait headline designed to give a (false) negative impression of Trump, angry, out of control and under pressure, and then a slow walkback in the article itself. But the first impression made is likely to colour our assessment of Trump. It's media bias and manipulation of readers.
      We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see anything misleading or incorrect in the article or in it's characterization of Trumps response. He expects polls to show what he wants to see, not what actually is, and he's vented a ridiculous accusation on twitter that somehow fix 'isn't being fair'. How is that any different from his response to the inauguration? And good on fox for ignoring him and publishing the findings anyway.

      A more complete text for the tweet is:

      Source: trump tweets


      From the day I announced I was running for President, I have NEVER had a good @FoxNews Poll. Whoever their Pollster is, they suck. But @FoxNews is also much different than it used to be in the good old days. With people like Andrew Napolitano, who wanted to be a Supreme....


      Donald J. Trump

      @realDonaldTrump
      ...Court Justice & I turned him down (heís been terrible ever since), Shep Smith, @donnabrazile (who gave Crooked Hillary the debate questions & got fired from @CNN), & others, @FoxNews doesnít deliver for US anymore. It is so different than it used to be. Oh well, Iím President

      © Copyright Original Source



      And he did not stop with these two tweets, he just kept on complaining about it and putting up other polls that look 'better' (but come from less reliable sources).

      All in all, I would say 'rages' is accurate.



      Jim
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-10-2019, 11:31 AM.
      He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

      "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Part of this is that there's so much "I HATE TRUMP" mentality that the accusations go even beyond the stupid/jackass things he does. If the TrumpHaters simply stuck to what Trump has actually done, they'd have plenty to talk about, and there's a whole lot for which I wouldn't even try to defend Trump. As I've stated numerous times, I wish somebody would take his Twitter account from him, but there's no need to make up stuff.

        There's merit to that, certainly, and I agree that sticking to what Trump has actually done gives everybody plenty of reason to oppose him or even view him with contempt. But, there again, we have to define where and how people are making stuff up. Not here in a list, of course, but when it's happening. Then a discussion about the factual merits can be had: ideally, though rarely in practice, the chaff is winnowed from the wheat.

        --Sam
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          There's merit to that, certainly, and I agree that sticking to what Trump has actually done gives everybody plenty of reason to oppose him or even view him with contempt. But, there again, we have to define where and how people are making stuff up. Not here in a list, of course, but when it's happening. Then a discussion about the factual merits can be had: ideally, though rarely in practice, the chaff is winnowed from the wheat.

          --Sam
          Well, that's all wonderful, but when you point out an actual false accusation, you're accused by the TrumpHaters of being a "Trumpster" and "supporting Trump at every turn". Hate trumps fact.
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Part of this is that there's so much "I HATE TRUMP" mentality that the accusations go even beyond the stupid/jackass things he does. If the TrumpHaters simply stuck to what Trump has actually done, they'd have plenty to talk about, and there's a whole lot for which I wouldn't even try to defend Trump. As I've stated numerous times, I wish somebody would take his Twitter account from him, but there's no need to make up stuff.
            Yes, but thatís a chess match and democrats have made it clear they donít want a chess match, they want a brawl. They want him gone and gone now, no matter what it takes. Of course, this plays into who Trump is because heís actually quite good at it and the Democrats are not used to it, thus why they end up with a bloody nose each and every time. Trump, with enough time and given enough rope could hang himself, but again who has time for that?
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Well, that's all wonderful, but when you point out an actual false accusation, you're accused by the TrumpHaters of being a "Trumpster" and "supporting Trump at every turn". Hate trumps fact.

              We're in the bad times. Understandably so, I'd say, because our democratic institutions and ideals are being challenged like never before in our lifetimes. It's true that we all have to work hard to keep focus on fact and truth. It's also true that it's past time for patriots and citizens and Christians to choose which side they support deliberately and not just passively.

              It's a dichotomy that forces conflict.

              --Sam
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                We're in the bad times. Understandably so, I'd say, because our democratic institutions and ideals are being challenged like never before in our lifetimes. It's true that we all have to work hard to keep focus on fact and truth. It's also true that it's past time for patriots and citizens and Christians to choose which side they support deliberately and not just passively.

                It's a dichotomy that forces conflict.

                --Sam
                It would be much easier if the Democrats weren't pushing so hard against traditional values, and competing with one another to see who can be the fartherst left.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since youíve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?Ē

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  We're in the bad times. Understandably so, I'd say, because our democratic institutions and ideals are being challenged like never before in our lifetimes. It's true that we all have to work hard to keep focus on fact and truth. It's also true that it's past time for patriots and citizens and Christians to choose which side they support deliberately and not just passively.

                  It's a dichotomy that forces conflict.

                  --Sam
                  Iím not going to be a peasant. Youíre welcome to move to China to be one though.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    It would be much easier if the Democrats weren't pushing so hard against traditional values, and competing with one another to see who can be the fartherst left.
                    This is, for better or worse, a matter of opinion that doesn't reduce well to fact. I happen to disagree and think that Trump, by far, has shown the most hostility to traditional values of any modern president or party.

                    But we're all never going to agree on what "traditional values" means or which "traditional values" should be retained vs. which should be adapted or left to history. What we hopefully all can agree on are democratic civic values, those that promote democracy domestically and abroad, as well as those that retain our democratic institutions as non-partisan and oriented toward the general welfare of the Republic, rather than bent toward personal or party profit.

                    --Sam
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" ó Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      Yes, but thatís a chess match and democrats have made it clear they donít want a chess match, they want a brawl. They want him gone and gone now, no matter what it takes. Of course, this plays into who Trump is because heís actually quite good at it and the Democrats are not used to it, thus why they end up with a bloody nose each and every time. Trump, with enough time and given enough rope could hang himself, but again who has time for that?
                      It has been decades since the Democrat party has had to deal with a Republican who actually fights back. They're used to the likes of McCain, Romney, Ryan, and Boehner who were happy to roll over in the name of "compromise" so as to maintain the status quo.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        I see no reason to that, nor any reason for you to.

                        I try to give everyone the same benefit of doubt, at least initially. But if you want to maintain a double standard, I can't stop you.
                        Sarcasm.

                        Here's your tag!

                        For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest


                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          This is, for better or worse, a matter of opinion that doesn't reduce well to fact. I happen to disagree and think that Trump, by far, has shown the most hostility to traditional values of any modern president or party.

                          But we're all never going to agree on what "traditional values" means or which "traditional values" should be retained vs. which should be adapted or left to history. What we hopefully all can agree on are democratic civic values, those that promote democracy domestically and abroad, as well as those that retain our democratic institutions as non-partisan and oriented toward the general welfare of the Republic, rather than bent toward personal or party profit.

                          --Sam
                          So who wrote an article that said that free speech was killing us ? Was that a liberal or conservative? What paper published it?

                          What companies have bent a knee to China? What is the political leanings of these companies?

                          What groups have shouted down speakers on college campusí across the country? What are the political leanings of the speakers and the ones shouting them down?

                          Like I said Sam, youíre more than welcome to move to China and be a peasant there. Iíll pass.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Oh, I'm sure if the Democrats ever work up the courage to actually file for impeachment that they'll throw in everything and the kitchen sink no matter how meritless it might be.
                            To you, MM, allegations will remain meritless even if the evidence was so overwhelming that it forces the unethical and cowardly Republican Senate to give in and convict him. Facts will never penetrate the narrative running through that brain of yours.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              A better scenario would be where you think that Trump has done something for which he's attacked unfairly and I can respond whether I've defended him or jumped in for the attack or simply ignored the noise. Honestly, we've forgotten so many actual Trump scandals (whatever happened with that GSA Trump international decision?) that it's difficult to even remember non-events.

                              One thing I can recall: the Trump administration's decision to back off from demanding North Korea denuclearize in exchange for talks and relief. While Trump gets taken to task for his change in rhetoric and broken campaign promises (legitimately), nuclearization was a decades-long problem that got dumped into Trump's lap at the beginning of his term -- he wasn't going to stop North Korea from becoming a nuclear power and no US president in the near future is going to make NK give up is nuclear weapons. So Trump gets some unfair heat for his administration's failure to prevent/eradicate NK's nuclear arsenal.
                              Good point. I recall before the election people were worried that Trump would pretty much immediately plunge America into a nuclear war with North Korea. He's actually done quite well on that, I agree.


                              Originally posted by Sam
                              But, no, Trump's not trying the best he can to fulfill the responsibilities and great expectations of the presidency. He has, more than any other president in modern history, turned the executive branch into an extension of his own desires and animus. And that's so evident, I think, with so many examples of wrongdoing and self-serving action, that I just don't think someone can objectively follow American politics and see Trump as more or less on the same level as past presidents, Republican or Democrat. We're just dealing with someone and something very different here.

                              In any case, the answer to that problem isn't to simply decry partisanship but to show how a given event or issue should break down on objective means. Yes, we all harbor bias -- but holding bias isn't fate. We can, and should, subject those biases to scrutiny and challenge and work to make sure that our opinions stem from justified and warranted beliefs.

                              --Sam
                              The bolded sentence shows that you're mixing opinion with facts, Sam. There's simply no way that you (or anyone) can show that to be objectively true. Short of writing a (large) book about it. You'd have to show what Trump's personal desires are, and that they're not what his political desires are, for a start. That would involve significant analysis of his public and private statements. Then you'd need to show how he's acting on these personal desires rather than for political goals, and that there's no overlap between the two. And then you'd have to repeat that for all the other modern Presidents - Nixon /Kennedy/ Johnson / Ford / Carter / Clinton / the Bushes / Reagan / Obama, somehow quantify how much they used the executive branch for their own desires and angers... ... and use that to show your statement is true.


                              It might well be true (but Obama and the IRS springs to mind) - but the point is you're conflating your negative opinions of Trump with facts, and that's not objective.

                              Your last sentence is admirable as an ideal - but just how well do you live up to it? Not as well as you perhaps think.


                              Edit to add: I should add that when someone consistently and pretty much exclusively weighs in on one side of the political divide, no matter what the issue, that does raise the question of how much he is a partisan rather than an objective analyst.

                              IOW, don't be the shunyadragon of Civics - 'I'm not an atheist (Democrat fanboi), it's just that all your arguments for God suck (the Democrats are the only ones with real morals and fighting for what's right)'
                              Last edited by MaxVel; 10-11-2019, 10:29 AM.
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see anything misleading or incorrect in the article or in it's characterization of Trumps response. He expects polls to show what he wants to see, not what actually is, and he's vented a ridiculous accusation on twitter that somehow fix 'isn't being fair'. How is that any different from his response to the inauguration? And good on fox for ignoring him and publishing the findings anyway.

                                A more complete text for the tweet is:

                                Source: trump tweets


                                From the day I announced I was running for President, I have NEVER had a good @FoxNews Poll. Whoever their Pollster is, they suck. But @FoxNews is also much different than it used to be in the good old days. With people like Andrew Napolitano, who wanted to be a Supreme....


                                Donald J. Trump

                                @realDonaldTrump
                                ...Court Justice & I turned him down (heís been terrible ever since), Shep Smith, @donnabrazile (who gave Crooked Hillary the debate questions & got fired from @CNN), & others, @FoxNews doesnít deliver for US anymore. It is so different than it used to be. Oh well, Iím President

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                And he did not stop with these two tweets, he just kept on complaining about it and putting up other polls that look 'better' (but come from less reliable sources).

                                All in all, I would say 'rages' is accurate.



                                Jim


                                Rage: to act or speak with fury; show or feel violent anger; fulminate.


                                Quote the words from his tweet that were cited in the story that show Trump was 'acting or speaking with fury'


                                Fury: unrestrained or violent anger, rage, passion, or the like
                                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                                Comment

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