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Ellen DeGeneres is Right

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  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    Fewer, almost certainly.

    And Hussein was clearly an atrocious tyrant who engaged in frequent torture. But that doesn't justify American torture, nor does that by itself justify American military intervention -- especially not for falsified reasons or without any real strategy for maintaining regional order in the aftermath.

    Bush is culpable for his decisions. And they don't become less because someone else is worse.

    -Sam
    First I don't think Bush approved of torturing people to death, they did approve of enhanced methods which were not generally life threatening. And Iraq is better off without Saddam, even with all their all their fits and starts. Not that I was originally in favor of the war...

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam
    replied
    There's nothing Christian about cheap grace. DeGeneres is treating this as you are -- two people who disagree about some key issues but can still sit around having fun. That's not Christian forgiveness or grace or anything like it. It's merely erasing harm from the equation.

    Bush has done massive, intentional damage; whether one makes a maximal case or a conservative one, the Iraq War and the reintroduction of torture are not small harms. The decision to get anti-SSM initiatives on ballots to juice electoral turnout was not a small harm.

    And I'm saying that doing harm matters. And that it can and should affect our decisions to hang out with certain people who have neither apologized nor repented.

    --Sam

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    We're talking about different things.
    Sure we are. I'm talking about giving kudos to a woman I would (in the flesh) look upon with disdain, but see her in a whole different light because of my friendship with somebody of her own sexual persuasion. It changed me.

    I'm talking about people who have done considerable harm to others. You're talking about people who disagree with you.
    And you absolutely maximize your assessment of the damage that Bush has done, making that, in your mind, apparently, what totally defines him. (I had a bunch of extra commas laying round)

    I haven't argued against friendships involving the latter. I think it's fundamentally illegitimate, however, to equate harm with mere disagreement.

    --Sam
    It just seems that, in this particular instance, you're being quite judgmental and legalistic while Ellen is being more "Christian".

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You have, in my opinion, such a backward view on this.

    Friendships can often change people. When I was assigned my legendary liberal atheist lesbian executive admin, she seemed to try hard to mock my Christianity and my faith, but I was determined to treat her professionally in spite of the fact that I was personally opposed to her lifestyle and her extreme left political leanings.

    We actually became friends. She became known as my "work wife", and after a couple years, she stopped mocking my faith and Christianity.

    When her sister died, she actually came into my office, closed the door, and asked me "What if you're right and I'm wrong?" She caught me off guard for a minute, because I had no idea what she was referencing. Then she said "About God, about heaven and hell - what if you're right and I'm wrong?"

    I would NEVER have had that opportunity with her had I maintained my prejudices and attitude. Our friendship changed both of us.
    We're talking about different things. I'm talking about people who have done considerable harm to others. You're talking about people who disagree with you.

    I haven't argued against friendships involving the latter. I think it's fundamentally illegitimate, however, to equate harm with mere disagreement.

    --Sam

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    And how many would have died in these years if Saddam was still in power? And how many were tortured to death?
    Fewer, almost certainly.

    And Hussein was clearly an atrocious tyrant who engaged in frequent torture. But that doesn't justify American torture, nor does that by itself justify American military intervention -- especially not for falsified reasons or without any real strategy for maintaining regional order in the aftermath.

    Bush is culpable for his decisions. And they don't become less because someone else is worse.

    -Sam

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    Holding those who committed these atrocities accountable -- even socially -- would probably go a long way to preventing it in the future. Right now, torture and war are just things that powerful people can do and not risk getting uninvited to a Hamptons social.

    --Sam
    You have, in my opinion, such a backward view on this.

    Friendships can often change people. When I was assigned my legendary liberal atheist lesbian executive admin, she seemed to try hard to mock my Christianity and my faith, but I was determined to treat her professionally in spite of the fact that I was personally opposed to her lifestyle and her extreme left political leanings.

    We actually became friends. She became known as my "work wife", and after a couple years, she stopped mocking my faith and Christianity.

    When her sister died, she actually came into my office, closed the door, and asked me "What if you're right and I'm wrong?" She caught me off guard for a minute, because I had no idea what she was referencing. Then she said "About God, about heaven and hell - what if you're right and I'm wrong?"

    I would NEVER have had that opportunity with her had I maintained my prejudices and attitude. Our friendship changed both of us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zymologist
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    Man, where I live, how could one not?

    It depends on the definition of "right-wingers", of course, but I've got friends who work or worked on major Republican campaigns and probably a solid plurality of my friend group are right-leaning or right-wing. I often tell the story of my old church friend (now deceased) and our annual hours-long discussion when I'd bring a pie over and try to dissuade him from views like "I'd turn 'em [Arab countries] into a sea of glass."

    It's very rare to find a politically left-leaning or even left-wing person with few right-leaning or right-wing friends. The world is just too complicated for that.

    But actions matter. And Bush's actions matter a lot.

    --Sam
    I wasn't contesting either of these at all, just trying to get the thread back to the general principle and off of the example.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    ~200,000 Iraqi civilians won't see that sunrise. People who died at the hands of American torturers won't see it. That should have some weight.

    --Sam
    And how many would have died in these years if Saddam was still in power? And how many were tortured to death?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And Ellen NOT sitting with Bush at a ballgame would have prevented that.
    Holding those who committed these atrocities accountable -- even socially -- would probably go a long way to preventing it in the future. Right now, torture and war are just things that powerful people can do and not risk getting uninvited to a Hamptons social.

    --Sam

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    Leaving out Bush as an extreme example (him being a former president), would or could you be friends with right-wingers in general?
    Man, where I live, how could one not?

    It depends on the definition of "right-wingers", of course, but I've got friends who work or worked on major Republican campaigns and probably a solid plurality of my friend group are right-leaning or right-wing. I often tell the story of my old church friend (now deceased) and our annual hours-long discussion when I'd bring a pie over and try to dissuade him from views like "I'd turn 'em [Arab countries] into a sea of glass."

    It's very rare to find a politically left-leaning or even left-wing person with few right-leaning or right-wing friends. The world is just too complicated for that.

    But actions matter. And Bush's actions matter a lot.

    --Sam

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Two things right quick....

    We've gone 15 posts without anybody mentioning:

    A) bacon
    2) Trump

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Well I personally wouldn't have a problem with watering boarding a Jihadist if I thought it would save your life or the lives of fellow Marines. And I don't think Bush lied, I believe, they really believed, there were still WMD in Iraq.
    As did Bill Clinton and others before it became "Bush lied, people died".

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    ~200,000 Iraqi civilians won't see that sunrise. People who died at the hands of American torturers won't see it. That should have some weight.

    --Sam
    And Ellen NOT sitting with Bush at a ballgame would have prevented that.

    Leave a comment:


  • seer
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam View Post
    Not if you lie a nation into a war and reintroduce torture, no. I suspect we wouldn't make good neighbors.
    Well I personally wouldn't have a problem with watering boarding a Jihadist if I thought it would save your life or the lives of fellow Marines. And I don't think Bush lied, I believe, they really believed, there were still WMD in Iraq.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Sam has the extraordinary gift of seeing darkness where others see a beautiful sunrise.

    By the way --- the sunrise at my house this morning...

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]40137[/ATTACH]

    (Sorry about the slightly "off level" - I'm on drugs due to my knee)

    ~200,000 Iraqi civilians won't see that sunrise. People who died at the hands of American torturers won't see it. That should have some weight.

    --Sam

    Leave a comment:

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