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Ellen DeGeneres is Right

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Do you even realize that your version of what Bush did requires you to assume the worst possible motives, regardless of his own beliefs? Even your version of his "decision to get anti-SSM initiatives on ballots to juice electoral turnout" assumes that he didn't do this because of a sincere belief that SSM is wrong, but he only did it for political purposes.

    Sam, do you have any idea how incredibly judgmental that is? Is it possible that Ellen believed Bush was acting from his own convictions, and for that, "forgiveness" is not required?

    We have plenty of good evidence for these conclusions; we know that the 2004 amendment was a Karl Rove initiative for the Bush campaign and we know that Bush supported Rove's play. But, on that point, I don't think it much matters whether Bush's intentions were cynical or sincere: Bush pursued an action that would have prevented DeGeneres and millions like her from being able to form legal families. Without public apology and contrition, it's a problem that DeGeneres is treating that like a mere disagreement over issues. That's a real harm.

    On the Iraq War and torture, there isn't even that level of complexity. Bush disregarded intelligence that refuted the justification his administration wanted to use to start the Iraq War and Bush misled the American people and the world, anyway. Bush authorized the introduction of torture into American strategy.

    Of course it's judgmental to say that Bush shouldn't be treated as though these were just banal policy or personal disagreements. But it's the right kind of judgement, one that holds the powerful to account, even a small amount, for the harm they do so carelessly.

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      Bush pursued an action that would have prevented DeGeneres and millions like her from being able to form legal families...
      --Sam
      Which is a morally good thing. Blame Bush for being ethical...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
        You're still not getting it. If you are persistent and keep trying to influence others to do the right thing, if you give them time and be civil and all that, they may come around to your way of seeing things. If you preemptively give them up as a lost cause and refuse to speak with them, they just keep doing what they're doing and you've lost an opportunity. Hanging out with someone and being kind and civil does not equate to agreeing with or condoning their actions. And at the end of the day, even if they don't change then at least you know that you were a decent person towards them.
        Bush began the Iraq War in 2003 and authorized torture, by memory, in 2004. I believe he's had enough time to reconsider his choices.

        No one here, I believe, would criticize someone who refused to go to a Jeffery Epstein party on the basis that he serially abused women. No one, I think, would be criticized for refusing to attend a function with Bill Clinton on the basis that he has been credibly accused of sexual assault. No one really should be arguing that we have an obligation to go to a baseball game with Bernie Madoff if a member of our family lost their life savings to his ponzi scheme.

        What we're talking about here isn't the power of forgiveness or unity: it's simply the decision to not factor harm into our friendship decisions. I'm saying that harm is a factor and should be considered -- the more harm, the more weight to that consideration. Don't allow cheap grace to take the place of true grace. If DeGeneres wants to grapple with Bush's torture policy or the hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq, that's a worthwhile discussion. But that is the discussion, not mere "disagreement".

        --Sam
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sam View Post
          We have plenty of good evidence for these conclusions...
          Sam, it's not that Bush should be "treated as though these were just banal policy or personal disagreements" - nobody claimed that.

          It's that you choose to define his whole life by your version of his actions, as well as assuming his motivations, while DeGeneres obviously looks at him as a human being who strongly believed differently than she does/did, and she's not allowing that to cause her to treat him with disdain. Kind of a "love your enemies", if you will.
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Which is a morally good thing. Blame Bush for being ethical...
            I'd have to assume that Sam believes same sex marriage and homosexuality are acceptable -- would that be a wrong assumption, Sam?
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Sam, it's not that Bush should be "treated as though these were just banal policy or personal disagreements" - nobody claimed that.

              It's that you choose to define his whole life by your version of his actions, as well as assuming his motivations, while DeGeneres obviously looks at him as a human being who strongly believed differently than she does/did, and she's not allowing that to cause her to treat him with disdain. Kind of a "love your enemies", if you will.
              The decision to authorize torture and a decision to go into war with false or misleading intel are probably the most consequential actions of Bush's life. Accountability for those actions comes with the job he volunteered for.

              If DeGeneres weighs those decisions and decides that she still wants to go to ballgames with Bush, that's something that reflects poorly on her, I'd say. Bush hasn't apologized or repented for those decisions and that matters.

              --Sam
              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I'd have to assume that Sam believes same sex marriage and homosexuality are acceptable -- would that be a wrong assumption, Sam?
                I am LGBTQ-affirming, yes.
                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  I am LGBTQ-affirming, yes.
                  Thanks. Didn't want to incorrectly assume.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    I'd have to assume that Sam believes same sex marriage and homosexuality are acceptable -- would that be a wrong assumption, Sam?
                    We all have moral blind spots...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      The decision to authorize torture and a decision to go into war with false or misleading intel are probably the most consequential actions of Bush's life...
                      In your opinion, obviously. I think we get that.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        I am LGBTQ-affirming, yes.
                        So you affirm sin, got it...
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          I am LGBTQ-affirming, yes.
                          So, this is interesting to me. The guy who is "LGBTQ-affirming" is critical of the woman who is actually LGBTQ.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
                            Bucket list:
                            A Southern Baptist preacher comparing Ellen DeGeneris with Jesus.

                            Check.

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I'm on drugs due to my knee
                            Bartender ... a double of that, please.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                              Bucket list:
                              A Southern Baptist preacher comparing Ellen DeGeneris with Jesus.

                              Check.
                              Yeah, I kinda surprised myself.

                              Bartender ... a double of that, please.
                              Because that Tramadol made me visit other planets with Arnold Schnizendigger and the Care Bears.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Yeah, I kinda surprised myself.



                                Because that Tramadol made me visit other planets with Arnold Schnizendigger and the Care Bears.
                                I like Tramadol - if you have left overs...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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