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Slaughtering our Kurdish allies

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  • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
    Read Trump’s Letter to Turkey’s President
    BY THE NEW YORK TIMES
    OCT. 16, 2019

    President Trump said on Wednesday that he did not give President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey a green light to move Turkish forces into northern Syria, adding that he'd written a “very powerful letter” of warning in the days after announcing his decision to pull back American troops from the area.
    THE WHITE HOUSE

    WASHINGTON

    October 9, 2019

    His Excellency
    Recep Tayyip Erdogan
    President of the Republic of Turkey
    Ankara

    Dear Mr. President:

    Let's work out a good deal! You don't want to be responsible for slaughtering thousands of people, and I don't want to be responsible for destroying the Turkish economy — and I will. I've already given you a little sample with respect to Pastor Brunson.

    I have worked hard to solve some of your problems. Don't let the world down. You can make a great deal. General Mazloum is willing to negotiate with you, and he is willing to make concessions that they would never have made in the past. I am confidentially enclosing a copy of his letter to me, just received.

    History will look upon you favorably if you get this done the right and humane way. It will look upon you forever as the devil if good things don't happen. Don't be a tough guy. Don't be a fool!

    I will call you later.

    Sincerely,

    /s/ Donald Trump

    This is showing up on multiple news platforms, was originally acquired by Fox News, and has been confirmed. Meanwhile, the State Department is in meltdown, Giuliani's lawyer has quit, his two companions in the Ukraine imbroglio have been arrested, administration officials ordered to defy the impeachment inquiry are being granted "friendly" subpoenas and testifying anyway, the House has cast an overwhelming bipartisan vote to censure the president ...

    At this point, I'm not sure Trump is going to last long enough to face an impeachment trial.
    Apparently not received well in Turkey. From BBC: Turkey's Erdogan 'threw Trump's Syria letter in bin'

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Reminiscent of the powerful warnings that Obama gave Syria. You know that laughable non-existent "red line." Neither are even worth the paper the message was written on.
      That letter was deranged. I double, triple, and quadruple-checked to make sure it was real before posting it.

      Comment


      • Mike Pence announces he has agreed a five-day ceasefire with Turkey to allow Kurds to leave the 'safe zone' in Syria - handing Erdogan a 'buffer zone' along the border

        Pence outlined the details of the agreement, saying Turkey agreed five-day cease fire in order to let Kurds get out of the 'safe zone' and Turkey will have a buffer zone around the border.

        'Once that is completed, Turkey has agreed to a permanent ceasefire,' the vice president said.

        He also said Turkey agreed not to take any military action against Kobani.

        'Our administration has already been in contact with Syria defense forces and we've already begun to facilitate their safe withdrawal from the nearly 20-mile-wide safe zone area south of the Turkish border in Syria,' Pence said.

        'We recognize the importance and value of a safe zone to create a buffer between Syria proper and the Kurdish population and the Turkish border,' he noted.

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ceasefire.html
        Last edited by seer; 10-17-2019, 01:16 PM.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Indeed, we have a long history of cutting allies loose to drift on their own the moment they're either no longer useful or they get in some sort of trouble. Say what you want about the Russians, through thick or thin, if you're allied with them they will have your back. And don't think other countries don't notice.

          While I certainly don't want us to spend countless decades in the Middle East trying to get folks who are bound and determined to kill each other to play nice, the fact is that the Kurds did most of the heavy lifting for us in eliminating ISIS, and Trump shouldn't have pulled out leaving them to the tender mercy of the Turks.

          And yet, OTOH, FWIU, a large portion of the Kurdish forces belong to a group (or are closely affiliated with them) that the U.S. government has labeled a terrorist organization so it looks like we were only ever going to be temporary allies anyways -- allies of convenience. But even if that's the case we shouldn't just throw them to the wolves when they're no longer as useful if for no other reason that such actions will make it all the harder to form coalitions and alliances in the future. And if ISIS starts to reform who are we going to turn to for help in dealing with them?

          It may have been a campaign promise on Trump's part but he certainly handled this in a ham-fisted way.
          A 10 min video with Michael Doran of the Hudson Institute presenting the argument that Trump did the correct thing to do.


          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Reminiscent of the powerful warnings that Obama gave Syria. You know that laughable non-existent "red line." Neither are even worth the paper the message was written on. :
            Nevertheless, Obama didn't write a letter that reads like satire in The Onion.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Nevertheless, Obama didn't write a letter that reads like satire in The Onion.
              Trump’s puerile letter to Erdogan should give every American the chills

              By Henry Olsen
              Columnist
              Oct. 17, 2019 at 2:40 p.m. EDT
              I rarely comment upon President Trump’s communications style, preferring instead to focus on his policies or political standing. But I’m making an exception for his letter to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. It is puerile and insipid — an excellent example of why so many people in Washington think Trump is not up to the job.

              Olsen rarely comments on Trump's communication style because it's not possible to do so without reflecting negatively on Trump. Like regular Post contributors Hewitt and Thiessen, and Max Boot before he reversed himself, Olsen is a partisan shill. If it were possible, he'd find a way. Olsen does find a way to mute the criticism here, too, but there is only one meaningful conclusion that can be drawn, even by one of Trump's staunchest allies.
              Trump’s instincts have sometimes produced great success, such as when his threats of tariffs shocked Mexico into assisting the United States to reduce illegal border crossings. He has also been successful taking the advice of competent aides, such as during the negotiations that produced the 2017 tax cut or in his decision in February to walk away from a summit with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un without a deal. But this letter shows what can happen when Trump acts on his own without counsel. That sight should give every American the chills.

              That letter was deranged.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                A 10 min video with Michael Doran of the Hudson Institute presenting the argument that Trump did the correct thing to do.
                No, it's not.

                He argues strongly that the PYD is indistinguishable from the PKK, and as such, because we identify the PKK as a terrorist organization inimical to the interests of our Turkish ally, our support for them in Syria was always transactional. At the same time he confirms there is no answer to objections that Trump's move has empowered ISIS, liberated large numbers of ISIS family members, and is about to liberate the ISIS fighters themselves.

                In sum, it's an argument that we should never have aligned with them at all, and not an argument that we should have abandoned them once we had, and in fact, he's clear that's not what he's trying to say. In the process he takes a couple of cheap shots, basically smears of his ideological opponents, especially Brett McGurk, which still look more de rigeur than keenly felt.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Indeed, we have a long history of cutting allies loose to drift on their own the moment they're either no longer useful or they get in some sort of trouble. Say what you want about the Russians, through thick or thin, if you're allied with them they will have your back. And don't think other countries don't notice.

                  While I certainly don't want us to spend countless decades in the Middle East trying to get folks who are bound and determined to kill each other to play nice, the fact is that the Kurds did most of the heavy lifting for us in eliminating ISIS, and Trump shouldn't have pulled out leaving them to the tender mercy of the Turks.

                  And yet, OTOH, FWIU, a large portion of the Kurdish forces belong to a group (or are closely affiliated with them) that the U.S. government has labeled a terrorist organization so it looks like we were only ever going to be temporary allies anyways -- allies of convenience. But even if that's the case we shouldn't just throw them to the wolves when they're no longer as useful if for no other reason that such actions will make it all the harder to form coalitions and alliances in the future. And if ISIS starts to reform who are we going to turn to for help in dealing with them?

                  It may have been a campaign promise on Trump's part but he certainly handled this in a ham-fisted way.
                  I'm sure that Trump handled it exactly the way Putin told him to handle it.

                  Comment


                  • What it means for American bases in Syria to be occupied by Syrian and Russian forces

                    By: Shawn Snow
                    1 day ago [Oct. 17, 2019]
                    As U.S. forces make a grab for the exit from Syria in a hurry, reports and video coming in suggest they are dumping equipment and leaving bases intact while stripping sensitive items.

                    Veterans don't mince words:
                    “I see a big problem with it. And it shows just how unplanned and half-assed this “withdrawal” is,” said Marine veteran Anderson Bryant, who fought with the SDF as it liberated Manbij from ISIS fighters in 2016.

                    Poor planning is a gift to opposing forces.
                    A video posted to Twitter shows Russians entering what’s described as a U.S. camp in Manbij, Syria. Col. Myles B. Caggins III, the spokesman for Operation Inherent Resolve, announced Tuesday that the U.S. had pulled its forces out of the Syrian city.

                    The video shows an empty base with tents still setup and Hesco barrier fortifications surrounding the camp.

                    Reuters reported Wednesday, citing Russian state TV, that Syrian forces in northeast Syria have taken over abandoned U.S. camps in the region.


                    Another piece from Shawn Snow is more troubling, but far less likely to show up in Russian agitprop videos on Youtube.

                    US special operations secrets could fall into hands of Russians and Syrians in pullout

                    By: Shawn Snow
                    2 days ago [Oct. 16, 2019]
                    For nearly five years American commandos have served beside Kurdish-led forces as they battled ISIS militants across northern Syria.

                    Now abandoned by their U.S. partners, Kurdish fighters in Syria are embracing Russia and Syrian regime forces for help to thwart a Turkish incursion raging across northeastern Syria.

                    The new partnership for the Kurdish fighters may be an intelligence bonanza for Russia and Syria as U.S.-backed Syrian Democratic Forces have spent years working alongside American commandos gauging tactics, techniques, procedures, equipment, intelligence gathering and even potentially names of operators.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      I'm sure that Trump handled it exactly the way Putin told him to handle it.
                      It certainly is very adventitious to Putin - no doubt about that. Given Trumps mystical deference to him over his term, it is definitely a possibility this was 'requested'.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        It certainly is very adventitious to Putin - no doubt about that.
                        word.gif
                        Last edited by Juvenal; 10-18-2019, 11:42 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]40303[/ATTACH]
                          ? ( I know the reference, just not how you are applying it)
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            ? ( I know the reference, just not how you are applying it)
                            Edited ... clicky, clicky.


                            Meanwhile ...

                            Our Republic Is Under Attack From the President
                            If President Trump doesn’t demonstrate the leadership that America needs, then it is time for a new person in the Oval Office.

                            By William H. McRaven
                            Admiral McRaven is a former commander of the United States Special Operations Command.

                            Oct. 17, 2019
                            These men and women, of all political persuasions, have seen the assaults on our institutions: on the intelligence and law enforcement community, the State Department and the press. They have seen our leaders stand beside despots and strongmen, preferring their government narrative to our own. They have seen us abandon our allies and have heard the shouts of betrayal from the battlefield. As I stood on the parade field at Fort Bragg, one retired four-star general, grabbed my arm, shook me and shouted, “I don’t like the Democrats, but Trump is destroying the Republic!”

                            Those words echoed with me throughout the week. It is easy to destroy an organization if you have no appreciation for what makes that organization great. We are not the most powerful nation in the world because of our aircraft carriers, our economy, or our seat at the United Nations Security Council. We are the most powerful nation in the world because we try to be the good guys. We are the most powerful nation in the world because our ideals of universal freedom and equality have been backed up by our belief that we were champions of justice, the protectors of the less fortunate.

                            But, if we don’t care about our values, if we don’t care about duty and honor, if we don’t help the weak and stand up against oppression and injustice — what will happen to the Kurds, the Iraqis, the Afghans, the Syrians, the Rohingyas, the South Sudanese and the millions of people under the boot of tyranny or left abandoned by their failing states?

                            If our promises are meaningless, how will our allies ever trust us? If we can’t have faith in our nation’s principles, why would the men and women of this nation join the military? And if they don’t join, who will protect us? If we are not the champions of the good and the right, then who will follow us? And if no one follows us — where will the world end up?

                            President Trump seems to believe that these qualities are unimportant or show weakness. He is wrong. These are the virtues that have sustained this nation for the past 243 years. If we hope to continue to lead the world and inspire a new generation of young men and women to our cause, then we must embrace these values now more than ever.

                            Trump has lost the military.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                              Edited ... clicky, clicky.
                              ?

                              Does anybody else have a clue what Juvenal is getting at? I sure don't.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                ?

                                Does anybody else have a clue what Juvenal is getting at? I sure don't.
                                Never mind, my eyes were finally 'opened'. Kind of scary it took me that long to see it.

                                Jim
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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