Trump suggests civil war should he be Impeached.

[oxmixmudd]

Right... a Democrat senator telling us what he supposedly heard Zelensky say, versus what Zelensky actually said for himself on the record.

You keep saying that as if the pressure to investigate Biden and the need for US aid, controlled by the President, would have no effect on that response. This comes close to trolling MM. Your dismissal of the pressure and refusing to factor in, among other things, the expressed concern of Ukrainian official is openly dishonest. Please stop - you are only hurting yourself, your conscience.


Jim

[Mountain Man]

It apparently was not Zelensky himself expressing the concern to senators, but rather officials from their government.

And by "officials" you mean one former official who contradicts Zelensky's own on-the-record statement that he felt no pressure from the Trump administration. So you're asking me to dismiss what someone said for himself in favor of what someone else says he said.

Right...

Which also confirms my belief Zelenski's comments you quoted are false...

Of course, anything Zelensky himself says that doesn't advance your preferred narrative must be a lie.

Do you have any idea just how insane that sounds?

[Mountain Man]

You keep saying that as if the pressure to investigate Biden and the need for US aid, controlled by the President, would have no effect on that response. This comes close to trolling MM. Your dismissal of the pressure and the expressed concern of Ukrainian official is openly dishonest. Please stop - you are only hurting yourself, your conscience (or has it already be destroyed?)


Jim

I hope you realize that this is just one big begged question on your part. I mean, you're the guy insisting that Zelinsky must be lying because he's not saying what you want him to say. That puts you right in the middle of Conspiracy Theory Loony Land.

[Charles]

Let's look at the quote once more:

Source: Zelenskyy

It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than the European Union and I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

© Copyright Original Source

Everything in bold refers to prior support. Even the second bit you put in bold indirectly refers to prior support, because he's talking about buying MORE Javelins.

Troll harder, bro.

So now you team up with those who believe "is" refers to prior. Good luck with twisting basic concepts, it is not going to help you come up with a credible interpretation.

[oxmixmudd]

I hope you realize that this is just one big begged question on your part. I mean, you're the guy insisting that Zelinsky must be lying because he's not saying what you want him to say. That puts you right in the middle of Conspiracy Theory Loony Land.

No MM - there is EVIDENCE that the Ukrainians CLEARLY understood the connection between the money and the desire for an investigation of Biden.

Ukrainian officials communicated concern to US officials about the money being held because of the request to investigate biden

An Ex Ukrainian official says the very phone call of July 25 ONLY TOOK PLACE BECAUSE A PRECONDITION THAT THE BIDEN INVESTIGATION BE DISCUSSED was agreed to.

These two facts tell us that unless Zelenski is completely unaware of what his officials know and understand, was completely unaware of the precondition for the call, his comments about 'pressure' are NOT truthful. WE MUST DISCOUNT THEM under the principle of duress. People have to say what their 'captor' wants them to say. Trump is/was holding Ukraine captive by withholding the funds until and unless they investigated the Bidens.

You can continue (and probably will) to claim otherwise - but you do so at the expense of honesty and reality.

Jim

[Mountain Man]

No MM - there is EVIDENCE that the Ukrainians CLEARLY understood the connection between the money and the desire for an investigation of Biden.

False. There are people making unverified claims that contradict the on-the-record statements made by President Zelinsky and his Foreign Minister who both said there was no pressure or coercion from the Trump administration. Since that doesn't fit your narrative, you're compelled to irrationally reject it.

[lilpixieofterror]

No MM - there is EVIDENCE that the Ukrainians CLEARLY understood the connection between the money and the desire for an investigation of Biden.

Ukrainian officials communicated concern to US officials about the money being held because of the request to investigate biden

An Ex Ukrainian official says the very phone call of July 25 ONLY TOOK PLACE BECAUSE A PRECONDITION THAT THE BIDEN INVESTIGATION BE DISCUSSED was agreed to.

These two facts tell us that unless Zelenski is completely unaware of what his officials know and understand, was completely unaware of the precondition for the call, his comments about 'pressure' are NOT truthful. WE MUST DISCOUNT THEM under the principle of duress. People have to say what their 'captor' wants them to say. Trump is/was holding Ukraine captive by withholding the funds until and unless they investigated the Bidens.

You can continue (and probably will) to claim otherwise - but you do so at the expense of honesty and reality.

Jim

Seek help for your TDS. It’s clearly rotting all rational centers of your brain.

[One Bad Pig]

So now you team up with those who believe "is" refers to prior. Good luck with twisting basic concepts, it is not going to help you come up with a credible interpretation.

Charles, "is" refers to something ongoing - which logically includes "prior".

[oxmixmudd]

Seek help for your TDS. It’s clearly rotting all rational centers of your brain.

That dismissal of the facts actually points to a problem on your end Pix, not mine.

[lilpixieofterror]

That dismissal of the facts actually points to a problem on your end Pix, not mine.

Who is this Un-named official?
What was his position?
How do we know he’s telling the truth when public statements contradict this?

Why do you believe him? Easy, he tells you want to hear so you don’t bother to switch on those rational portions of the brain because you don’t care. In your mind, Trump is guilty, we just need to find evidence that proves his guilt. The problem is on your end, your TDS simply prevents you from seeing it.

[oxmixmudd]

False. There are people making unverified claims that contradict the on-the-record statements made by President Zelinsky and his Foreign Minister who both said there was no pressure or coercion from the Trump administration. Since that doesn't fit your narrative, you're compelled to irrationally reject it.

Again - distorting the truth.

There are facts that contradict the claim Zelenski's statement should be taken at face value is the correct assessment of the situation.

You are saying that the ukrainan official and senators (plural) are all lying. When in fact this is not by any means the ONLY line of evidence that indicates:

1) Trump was holding the aid to gain the favor of the investigation of the Bidens
2) Officials in the government understood this connection clearly.

So they are not lying is the logical conclusion.

Yours is biased reasoning at its best. You take one bit of evidence and ignore all the rest to derive your conclusion - a conclusion you want to believe is true. The fact is, your entire case is based on zelenski's expressed perception of Trumps manipulation of him, and he does not have to characterize it as 'pressure' if he doesn't want to. Nevertheless, the money was still held captive to Trumps desire to have Biden investigated, and the Ukraine Zelenski were still held captive to Trump's wish for an investigation, and the Ukraine still suffered(s?) the consequences of that delay in aid.

The only logical conclusion is that Zelenski chose not to characterize that situation is 'being pressured' because he needs US aid, which means (at least for now) he needs to be in Trump's good graces.

Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

Again - distorting the truth.

There are facts that contradict the claim Zelenski's statement should be taken at face value is the correct assessment of the situation.

You are saying that the ukrainan official and senators (plural) are all lying. When in fact this is not by any means the ONLY line of evidence that indicates:

1) Trump was holding the aid to gain the favor of the investigation of the Bidens
2) Officials in the government understood this connection clearly.

So they are not lying is the logical conclusion.

Yours is biased reasoning at its best. You take one bit of evidence and ignore all the rest to derive your conclusion - a conclusion you want to believe is true. The fact is, your entire case is based on zelenski's expressed perception of Trumps manipulation of him, and he does not have to characterize it as 'pressure' if he doesn't want to. Nevertheless, the money was still held captive to Trumps desire to have Biden investigated, and the Ukraine Zelenski were still held captive to Trump's wish for an investigation, and the Ukraine still suffered(s?) the consequences of that delay in aid.

The only logical conclusion is that Zelenski chose not to characterize that situation is 'being pressured' because he needs US aid, which means (at least for now) he needs to be in Trump's good graces.

Jim

And you’re saying the president of the Ukraine and officials that actually name themselves are liars. Take your self serving outrage elsewhere. Everything else, equally applies to you, you’re just too blinded by your hatred to see it. Physician, heal thyself.

[Charles]

Charles, "is" refers to something ongoing - which logically includes "prior".

A dictionary might help you:

Definition of is (Entry 1 of 4)
present tense third-person singular of BE

dialectal present tense first-person and third-person singular of BE

dialectal present tense plural of BE

Saying "is" logically includes "prior" is quite a statement that I would like you to support. Going for a more modest statement that it could include prior would be a much better try. Even if it does it also contains present tense and thus any idea that they were only talking about what was prior would still be in error.

[Mountain Man]

2) Officials in the government understood this connection clearly.

You keep saying "officials" but have only provided the unverified claim of a single named former official. I see no good reason to take his word over on-the-record statements made by the Ukrainian president and his foreign minister. Everything else you've cited is just the usual "sources say" nonsense.

[oxmixmudd]

And you’re saying the president of the Ukraine and officials that actually name themselves are liars. Take your self serving outrage elsewhere. Everything else, equally applies to you, you’re just too blinded by your hatred to see it. Physician, heal thyself.

No - one way to characterize what zelenski said is a lie, but that really isn't correct or fair. Nevertheless it is not true. The reality is he has no choice but to say he 'didn't feel pressured' - otherwise he risks losing any favor he may have with Trump at the current time.


Jim