Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    How can I stop what I haven't been doing? You want to post an example of me doing that?

    However, the AR15 is still too powerful, too useful for killing lots of people quickly to be unlicensed in some form.

    Jim
    Thatís an opinion, but it is revealing that you donít want to take a crack at my point that government incompetence leads to many of the mass shootings weíve seen.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Right, take that Cruz kid in Florida - all the signs were there and known, even by law enforcement - nothing was done...
      Many gun control advocates end up being panic button pushers that want a solution now, but donít want to figure out the problem origins. Thereís lots of gun control laws on the books. Many enforced poorly, so how will passing yet more laws, make us safer? Thus far, I havenít heard an answer yet.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        No seer. For about the fourth time, you can't make the sort of generalizations you are making that are allowing you to make these absurd arguments. This isn't just about stopping people from dying. It's not even about stopping murder. Its about pushing back against mass murder with the easiest to use, easiest to acquire, and least regulated means available to the general public.

        The problem is random, mass shootings where one or two people can kill hundreds if they want to. It is just so easy to do it with a weapon like an AR15 if that is what you want to do.

        For example, we can't even own militarized airplanes, that is illegal. but we can own airplanes even though an airplane can be used to kill without military hardware attached to it.

        But to use an airplane, I need a good bit of money, and training. Either that or I have to get through airport security to steal one. And then you have all the FAA monitoring of traffic etc etc.. so it's no trivial task : BECAUSE WE LICENSE PILOTS, WE MONITOR AIR it'sTRAFFIC etc, because airplanes require skill to use. There are a lot of hurdles. BUT 911, they found a way. But they were organized, and they trained. But then we put even more restrictions in place, making it even harder.

        Not so guns.

        Any school kid or depressed ex can take an AR15 into a crowd and kill a bunch of people. The decision can be made on the spur of the moment.

        It's just too easy.

        Jim
        And yet, it rarely happens. Why?
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          Thatís an opinion, but it is revealing that you donít want to take a crack at my point that government incompetence leads to many of the mass shootings weíve seen.
          I've already told you that the fact you rarely argue a point without also attacking the person you are arguing with personally, usually painting them as sinister or conniving, is the reason I limit my responses to you. Reading anything else into it is but another symptom of that same problem.

          Jim
          He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

          "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            And yet, it rarely happens. Why?
            Because - fortunately I suppose - it is still relatively rare for a person ro be willing and motivated to take a gun like an AR15 and commit suicide by walking into a large crowd and killing as many people as possible before someone kills them.

            It is becoming less rare though. And that is also a part of the problem.

            Jim
            He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              I've already told you that the fact you rarely argue a point without also attacking the person you are arguing with personally, usually painting them as sinister or conniving, is the reason I limit my responses to you. Reading anything else into it is but another symptom of that same problem.

              Jim
              Irony at its finest. Got an answer yet?
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Because - fortunately I suppose - it is still relatively rare for a person ro be willing and motivated to take a gun like an AR15 and commit suicide by walking into a large crowd and killing as many people as possible before someone kills them.

                It is becoming less rare though. And that is also a part of the problem.

                Jim
                And the solution is to pass more poorly enforced laws?
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  Irony at its finest. Got an answer yet?
                  Replied to:

                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd
                  I've already told you that the fact you rarely argue a point without also attacking the person you are arguing with personally, usually painting them as sinister or conniving, is the reason I limit my responses to you. Reading anything else into it is but another symptom of that same problem.
                  Jim
                  He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    And the solution is to pass more poorly enforced laws?
                    I don't think anyone knows for sure what the 'solution' is. Part of the reason there is that the NRA has been successful at suppressing research into gun violence and prevention, making it difficult to know what are the likely most effective means of reducing gun violence.

                    Jim
                    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Replied to:



                      Jim
                      Thatís because youíve ignored the point that was made.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        I don't think anyone knows for sure what the 'solution' is. Part of the reason there is that the NRA has been successful at suppressing research into gun violence and prevention, making it difficult to know what are the likely most effective means of reducing gun violence.

                        Jim
                        Thatís mainly because of extreme biasness. Anyway, the solutions are not hard:

                        1. Lots of mass shooters slip through the cracks in already existing laws. They obtained their weapons because of other government agents inability to file paperwork to be entered in the database, law enforcement not acting on credible threats, law enforcement not arresting those that show a history of violent behavior, law enforcement not investigating failed background checks, etc. More laws wonít solve these issues.

                        2. Poor security at chosen targets. Some schools still have locks that canít be locked from the inside and require someone to expose themselves to lock the door. Too few armed resistance that are already on scene. Armed resistance that will engage a shooter. Good exits for those fleeing. Lack of training. Etc. Again, more laws wonít solve these issues.

                        3. Thereís around an estimated 300 million firearms currently in private hands that most were not tracked when bought. This cat is long out of the bag, you canít stuff it back in. Thereís too many guns, in too many hands, to make many of your stricter laws a success.

                        4. The most important point, you canít legislate yourself to safety. Your personal safety is not the governmentís responsibility, itís yours.

                        To add:

                        3d printed firearms are a reality with no easy way to control access, so all your gun control plans might be for nothing.
                        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 07:37 AM.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          And Florida, a republican lead legislature, has since changed the gun laws which had they been existent at the time, would have stopped Cruz from getting the AR15 he used in the shooting in the first place.
                          Three weeks to the day after the shooting, Scott signed into law the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Act , a comprehensive bill that includes a provision that raises the age to purchase a gun, bans bump stocks and allows law enforcement, with the approval of a judge, to bar a person deemed dangerous due to mental illness from owning guns for up to a year.

                          https://www.ajc.com/news/national/fl...QJjV7Nl1F7ZXI/
                          The age requirement would have prevented Cruz from legally getting a fire arm. Of course if he waited to 21... The mental health thing may have helped - which I have no problem with.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            Any school kid or depressed ex can take an AR15 into a crowd and kill a bunch of people. The decision can be made on the spur of the moment.


                            Jim
                            Can they do the same thing with a truck?


                            On the evening of 14 July 2016, a 19-tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds of people celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and the injury of 458 others


                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              Thatís mainly because of extreme biasness. Anyway, the solutions are not hard:

                              1. Lots of mass shooters slip through the cracks in already existing laws. They obtained their weapons because of other government agents inability to file paperwork to be entered in the database, law enforcement not acting on credible threats, law enforcement not arresting those that show a history of violent behavior, law enforcement not investigating failed background checks, etc. More laws wonít solve these issues.

                              2. Poor security at chosen targets. Some schools still have locks that canít be locked from the inside and require someone to expose themselves to lock the door. Too few armed resistance that are already on scene. Armed resistance that will engage a shooter. Good exits for those fleeing. Lack of training. Etc. Again, more laws wonít solve these issues.

                              3. Thereís around an estimated 300 million firearms currently in private hands that most were not tracked when bought. This cat is long out of the bag, you canít stuff it back in. Thereís too many guns, in too many hands, to make many of your stricter laws a success.

                              4. The most important point, you canít legislate yourself to safety. Your personal safety is not the governmentís responsibility, itís yours.

                              To add:

                              3d printed firearms are a reality with no easy way to control access, so all your gun control plans might be for nothing.
                              I'm not as pessimistic as you are.

                              1) the evidence is that gun control works. Most (western?) countries

                              A) do not have the problems with mass shootings we do
                              B) do not have the sort of lax gun control laws we do.

                              So unless you are willing to say those countries are just better at raising decent people, there is a high probability lack of control is a big part of the problem

                              That said - I AGREE with you that lax enforcement is also a problem and that we certainly need to correct that and other issues along the way. Would that alone be sufficient? I have my doubts.

                              The issue of the NRA interfering with research into gun violence is inexcusable. The fear of bias is generally unfounded as it was with Tobacco, and as it is with Global Warming or the Theory or Evolution. Scientists - as long as they are left to do their jobs - generally are a group of people committed to knowledge and to high standards of integrity. And those standards are enforced. Shoddy workmanship or tampering with the data usually results in the end of a career as a scientist.


                              Jim
                              He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                So unless you are willing to say those countries are just better at raising decent people, there is a high probability lack of control is a big part of the problem


                                Well yes to a degree. For instance we have higher death rate by knife than England.

                                https://www.euronews.com/2018/05/05/...nd-uk-compare-
                                Last edited by seer; 09-18-2019, 09:02 AM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X