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  • #61
    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    I understand it just fine, it’s based on ignorance and misunderstandings of the entire purpose of the second amendment.
    Bull - my point HAD NOTHING to do with the second freaking amendment - I don't even support new bans at this point.

    You:

    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

    My Personal Blog

    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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    • #62
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      In actuality after discovering that the ammo for pellet guns Edited by a Moderator delivery system.
      Yeah, poor Yorick - first and last day on the job at Roguetech.

      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        They can be adjusted with a bump stock to be fully automatic. They can fire up to 400 rounds a minute and were, I believe, the weapons used by the Las Vegas shooter who killed or wounded some 500 or so people.
        No they don’t, but bump stocks are already banned, so your point is...

        Yes, they are lethal just the same.
        Lots of things are lethal so your point is...

        Basically irrelevant to the current discussion.
        Your claim was that they are ‘basically the same’ and they are ‘the same’ in the sense that a Ford and Toyota are. Yeah both share some stuff in common, but they have different characteristics.

        Yep.

        The main difference with respect to mass shootings is that the Ak47 is automatic, but the AR15 can be adjusted to be automatic.
        And yet there’s only been one mass shooting event, in the past 5 years, where a bump stock was used. Automatic weapons are not all that useful in a mass shooting. Do you know why? They are highly inaccurate and use a lot of ammo. Look at how the military uses automatics and look at the one mass shooting that used a bump stock and what do you notice? The military doesn’t hand out automatics as standard issue for a reason. They tend to be used fixed to vehicles or carried by one man, with the rest using the M-4. Automatics are suppression fire weapons where they are used to take out rows of enemies or simply hold them at bay. They use a lot of ammo and most mass shootings simply are not going to work as well with one.

        I didn't bring up the AR15, you did, and no one wants to take everyones guns away, we want better, safer gun laws so that it is much more difficult for maniac's, lunatics, psychopaths to get their hands on what are basically machine guns which themselves are already outlawed.
        That’s vague and too bad that’s not true because they don’t have ‘basically machine guns’ they have semi auto weapons that the government has shown massive incompetence in keeping out of their hands. Look at most high profile mass shootings and here is the common thread:

        Government incompetence and inability to enforce already existing laws and to follow up lead to these shootings.

        Call me skeptical, but maybe the government should show competence and ability to enforce the already existing laws before we call for new ones.
        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-17-2019, 07:43 AM.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Bull - my point HAD NOTHING to do with the second freaking amendment - I don't even support new bans at this point.

          You:
          So why are you telling Jim your pro gun control?
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            *emphasis mine

            This is only true for the details of legislation - not for the principle of the issue. It's a bad argument to make - how well does 'sit down and shut up' usually work with you?
            I generally don't go around pretending to be an expert in areas I am not, and if I do overestimate my knowledge, I will acknowledge that when it is pointed out to me. As I recently did with Lurch regarding several issues regarding climate change.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              The military doesn’t hand out automatics as standard issue for a reason. They tend to be used fixed to vehicles or carried by one man, with the rest using the M-4.
              um, M4's have an automatic setting.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                um, M4's have an automatic setting.
                They do, but they are mostly used in semi auto mode. Full auto is really inaccurate and unless your enemy decides to line up in a nice, tight Napoleon column, they are not really going to kill a lot of enemies. The main goal is suppressing fire because you need to do something that exposes you and you want the enemy diving for cover and firing back less. They are not primarily a machine gun.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  They do, but they are mostly used in semi auto mode. Full auto is really inaccurate and unless your enemy decides to line up in a nice, tight Napoleon column, they are not really going to kill a lot of enemies. The main goal is suppressing fire because you need to do something that exposes you and you want the enemy diving for cover and firing back less. They are not primarily a machine gun.
                  We were discussing the difference between AR15s and actual military rifles like the M16 and M4. The difference is that both of those have full auto settings.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    We were discussing the difference between AR15s and actual military rifles like the M16 and M4. The difference is that both of those have full auto settings.
                    Yep, but jimmy acts as thought they are the same. Can you turn an AR-15 into a full auto? Yeah, but it takes machine tools and knowing how to do it, to do that. There’s a reason you don’t see mass shooters doing that, so I really don’t get his focus on full auto’s other than to mud up the waters.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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                    • #70
                      While we are discussing gun bans.... I have heard many people say that disarming the population won't lead to government overreach and even if civilians have guns what could they do against an army. But in every country that has become a totalitarian state, the first job was to disarm the civilians. Especially in socialist/communist regimes. Like Venezuela. The disarmed the people by using the same arguments Beto and the liberals use, to make people "safer" - and once they confiscated the guns, the oppression started.

                      From 2012:

                      Venezuela bans private gun ownership

                      Venezuela has brought a new gun law into effect which bans the commercial sale of firearms and ammunition.

                      Until now, anyone with a gun permit could buy arms from a private company.

                      Under the new law, only the army, police and certain groups like security companies will be able to buy arms from the state-owned weapons manufacturer and importer.

                      The ban is the latest attempt by the government to improve security and cut crime ahead of elections in October

                      Venezuela saw more than 18,000 murders last year and the capital, Caracas, is thought to be one of the most dangerous cities in Latin America.

                      The government has been running a gun amnesty in the run-up to the introduction of the new law to try to encourage people to give up their illegal arms without fear of consequences.

                      One member of the public in Caracas told the BBC: "They're killing people every day. This law is important but they need to do more, they're not doing enough now."

                      Hugo Chavez's government says the ultimate aim is to disarm all civilians.


                      And we all know how that turned out.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        While we are discussing gun bans.... I have heard many people say that disarming the population won't lead to government overreach and even if civilians have guns what could they do against an army. But in every country that has become a totalitarian state, the first job was to disarm the civilians. Especially in socialist/communist regimes. Like Venezuela. The disarmed the people by using the same arguments Beto and the liberals use, to make people "safer" - and once they confiscated the guns, the oppression started.

                        From 2012:

                        Venezuela bans private gun ownership

                        Venezuela has brought a new gun law into effect which bans the commercial sale of firearms and ammunition.

                        Until now, anyone with a gun permit could buy arms from a private company.

                        Under the new law, only the army, police and certain groups like security companies will be able to buy arms from the state-owned weapons manufacturer and importer.

                        The ban is the latest attempt by the government to improve security and cut crime ahead of elections in October

                        Venezuela saw more than 18,000 murders last year and the capital, Caracas, is thought to be one of the most dangerous cities in Latin America.

                        The government has been running a gun amnesty in the run-up to the introduction of the new law to try to encourage people to give up their illegal arms without fear of consequences.

                        One member of the public in Caracas told the BBC: "They're killing people every day. This law is important but they need to do more, they're not doing enough now."

                        Hugo Chavez's government says the ultimate aim is to disarm all civilians.


                        And we all know how that turned out.
                        Giving up your liberty, ‘for your own safety’ seems to lead to tragedy. The Federalist Papers make the second amendment goals pretty obvious, a last line of defense and protection from government oppression.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Yep, but jimmy acts as thought they are the same. Can you turn an AR-15 into a full auto? Yeah, but it takes machine tools and knowing how to do it, to do that. There’s a reason you don’t see mass shooters doing that, so I really don’t get his focus on full auto’s other than to mud up the waters.
                          The Las Vegas shooter used modified AR15's, lilpix. How many people did he kill and badly wound? You brought up the AR15, not me. I'm simply saying we need stricter gun laws, red flags, stricter background checks, closing of the many loopholes used to skirt the law and buy guns and modification devices, buybacks etc etc., What are you sick in the head? You watch all these innocent people, school children being murdered and you would do nothing to try and stifle it. That's sociopathic!
                          Last edited by JimL; 09-17-2019, 09:51 AM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            The Las Vegas shooter used modified AR15's, lilpix. How many people did he kill and badly wound? You brought up the AR15, not me. I'm simply saying we need stricter gun laws, red flags, stricter background checks, closing of the many loopholes used to skirt the law and by guns and modification devices, buybacks etc etc., What are you sick in the head? You watch all these innocent people, school children being murdered and you would do nothing to try and stifle it. That's sociopathic!
                            And nobody even heard of bump stocks until then, and they were promptly banned right after that. Besides watching youtube videos of them being used, they tend to shake the gun all over the place making it impossible to aim. The vegas shooter wasn't even trying to aim, he was just shooting into a crowd.

                            And have you ever even tried to buy a gun Jim? I have. First I applied for a handgun license. I had to undergo two background checks by the state police and the federal government to get my license. Then I had to fill out another background check form 4473 when I actually bought my gun. They are very thorough. Oh and I bought my gun through the internet. Liberals like to say that is a "loophole" - no it isn't. When you buy a gun through the internet, they won't ship it to you. They will only ship it to a local gun store, where you have to go, fill out the background check, wait for approval, then get your gun. Just like if you bought it at that store in the first place.

                            You are complaining about problems that don't exist.

                            Here is the form 4473 you have to fill out when you buy a gun (even from a gunshow or over the internet)

                            https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/44...53009/download

                            They send that in and do an instant background check on you. If you lie on the form you can be arrested.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              Giving up your liberty, ‘for your own safety’ seems to lead to tragedy. The Federalist Papers make the second amendment goals pretty obvious, a last line of defense and protection from government oppression.
                              I still think that argument, at this point, is obsolete. To have a reasonably effective 'last line of defense' in our age means putting too much unrestrained power into potentially unstable people's hands. The realcweapons of war are so powerful and destructive it is silly to think a bunch of AR15's is going to make a lot of difference. But even an AR15, it turns out, without some sort of management of their possession and use, is too much power to let loose in a time when there are more and more unstable people around to misuse them.

                              Jim
                              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                The Las Vegas shooter used modified AR15's, lilpix.
                                Which is already illegal and not an easy task to do. Have you seen the insides of an AR-15? They are filled with tiny parts that if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’ll destroy the weapon and render it a 1200+ dollar paperweight. It’s not a task that you can easily do in your basement. There’s a reason so few mass shooters try modifications of this type because while you can turn any semi auto weapon into a full auto, very few attempt it because the technical challenge is out if the league for most people.


                                How many people did he kill and badly wound?
                                Which doesn’t change the facts brought forth. We live in a society where people struggle to do basic car and house repairs. Let alone taking apart a lower receiver and knowing what parts to file and cut down to modify a semi automatic into a full auto. I wouldn’t attempt it and I’m a maintenance tech with over 15 years of experience.

                                You brought up the AR15, not me. I'm simply saying we need stricter gun laws, red flags, stricter background checks, closing of the many loopholes used to skirt the law and by guns and modification devices, buybacks etc etc.,
                                You mean the red flag laws that are a violation of the constitution? The ‘stricter’ background checks that fail because incompetent government agents fail to file proper paperwork and allow those that shouldn’t have been able purchase a gun, to do so? You mean the same government that fails to follow up on failed background checks? The same government that fails to check on credible threats, reported by concerned citizens? Buybacks? How do you plan on enforcing these? Are you going to get the government to perform illegal searches of every house and building, in America? This is why I call you ignorant because you repeat talking points and fail to understand that the government is massively incompetent and incapable of enforcing laws that already exist. How is passing more going to help?

                                What are you sick in the head? You watch all these innocent people, school children being murdered and you would do nothing to try and stifle it. That's sociopathic!
                                That’s nice emotionalism, but it doesn’t address a word I said. The blood is on the hands of the incompetent government and it’s incompetent agents that fail to enforce already existing laws.
                                Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-17-2019, 10:14 AM.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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