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Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Which underwent modifications and additions before it was adapted to the military.
    Just pointing out it originated as a military weapon, to serve military purposes. It was later that it became a weapon marketed to the public.

    Jim
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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    • #47
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Just pointing out it originated as a military weapon, to serve military purposes. It was later that it became a weapon marketed to the public.

      Jim
      Which is the story for a lot of guns currently on the market, including bolt action rifles, sold today. Doesnít change the fact that the current M-4 model is illegal to own if youíre not a government agency. The reason the AR style is so popular today is because of its modular design and ability to quickly attach accessories. With many of its lightweight and recoil reduction features being adapted beyond the AR style rifles, so there really isnít much difference between AR and non AR styles today.
      Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-16-2019, 01:00 PM.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        According to wikipedia, the AR15 was originally designed to be a battlefield weapon:

        Source: wikipedia

        In 1956, ArmaLite designed a lightweight selective fire rifle for military use and designated it the ArmaLite Rifle model 15, or AR-15.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Jim
        Well AR15s are not selective fire, so wikipedia is wrong. M16s are selective fire. including full auto. AR15s were not used in battle. Armalite sold the design to Colt which manufactured the M16s. The civilian version, the AR-15, is semiauto.

        actually checking wiki, I don't even see what you quoted:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15
        The ArmaLite AR-15 is an air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle manufactured in the United States between 1959 and 1964. Its military version was adopted by the United States Armed Forces as the M16 rifle. The military version M-16 was a select fire, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Well AR15s are not selective fire, so wikipedia is wrong. M16s are selective fire. including full auto. AR15s were not used in battle. Armalite sold the design to Colt which manufactured the M16s. The civilian version, the AR-15, is semiauto.

          actually checking wiki, I don't even see what you quoted:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-15
          The ArmaLite AR-15 is an air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle manufactured in the United States between 1959 and 1964. Its military version was adopted by the United States Armed Forces as the M16 rifle. The military version M-16 was a select fire, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed rifle.
          I suspect he is saying that the AR-15 was originally designed for the military, which is true, but the reality is the AR-15 was modified into the M-16 and itís modern M-4 brother. Plus both will likely look at being replaced in the next few years since the design is showing its age.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            I suspect he is saying that the AR-15 was originally designed for the military, which is true, but the reality is the AR-15 was modified into the M-16 and itís modern M-4 brother. Plus both will likely look at being replaced in the next few years since the design is showing its age.
            Yep. You can buy M4 style civilian rifles too. Just because they make a civilian version of a military gun, doesn't make them military weapons like Beto is claiming.

            And as far as what Beto was saying about bullets that rip apart someone's insides? Yeah that is exactly what I would want for self-defense. I want to make sure that someone attacking me or my family is stopped. I want as unfair advantage as possible. The last thing you want is to shoot someone and just piss them off.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Yep. You can buy M4 style civilian rifles too. Just because they make a civilian version of a military gun, doesn't make them military weapons like Beto is claiming.
              People are visually driven and donít get into the details. Are gun designs and innovations often driven with an eye on a military or police contract? You bet because they are the big buyers and only a bad businessman would ignore their biggest potential customer. This doesnít mean civilian designs are necessarily the same. Iíve shot pre AR style weapons and theyíre a good deal bigger, heavier, with a bigger recoil than youíll find in even non AR styles since the thing that truly marketed the AR to the military (lightweight, modular construction, with lighter recoil) was adapted across the market to include non AR styles.

              And as far as what Beto was saying about bullets that rip apart someone's insides? Yeah that is exactly what I would want for self-defense. I want to make sure that someone attacking me or my family is stopped. I want as unfair advantage as possible. The last thing you want is to shoot someone and just piss them off.
              The general idea of shooting someone is to stop them in their tracks and well, until the day phasers are invented thatís about the only way to ensure youíre own safety.
              Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-16-2019, 02:22 PM.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Just pointing out it originated as a military weapon, to serve military purposes. It was later that it became a weapon marketed to the public.

                Jim
                It may have been marketed for the military but the manufacturers didn't seem to know their market since they weren't interested and rejected it at least until after Colt took it over and made substantial changes including making it fully automatic.

                The point stands that no military uses or has used the AR-15. Calling it "military style" is a hoax.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Yep. You can buy M4 style civilian rifles too. Just because they make a civilian version of a military gun, doesn't make them military weapons like Beto is claiming.

                  And as far as what Beto was saying about bullets that rip apart someone's insides? Yeah that is exactly what I would want for self-defense. I want to make sure that someone attacking me or my family is stopped. I want as unfair advantage as possible. The last thing you want is to shoot someone and just piss them off.
                  Used to Dutch load my pair of Browning Hi Power 9mm with Glaser Safety slugs and standard JHP rounds.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    I have addressed it and understand your point just fine. Read all what I said, youíre not going to be able to regulate them without knowing a few things about their operation and characteristics. Itís no different than people that no nothing if driving shouldnít make traffic laws, people that donít know nothing about being a doctor shouldnít make laws about being a doctor, etc. Its not patronizing at all, itís just how we should operate before we try to regulate something.
                    That was NOT my point. That was derived from Jim's argument, but it wasn't even the particular point he made. I disagree with his conclusion - but agree with the point you STILL haven't evidently understood.

                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      You are all off the point. The point is E-Cigartette baning. Not guns.
                      That's the topic, not a singular point.



                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Well, when it ends up that the ignorant person is trying to ban or allow something based on their lack of knowledge, or incorrect knowledge it is important because they are arguing a straw man. If they are trying to ban certain guns because they claim they are military weapons when they are not, that is an important distinction, isn't it?

                        It would be the same regarding abortion. When someone is arguing we should allow full term abortions because the fetus is not alive or human but part of the mother, that too is an argument from ignorance and should be stopped.

                        How can someone propose a good solution regarding guns if they are ignorant of guns in the first place?

                        Or back to the topic, the vaping fluids? If we are just going to ban the flavored vaping fluid just because some people got sick, without any actual proof that something in the flavored vaping fluid cause it, that would be ignorant and wrong.
                        *emphasis mine

                        This is only true for the details of legislation - not for the principle of the issue. It's a bad argument to make - how well does 'sit down and shut up' usually work with you?

                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Used to Dutch load my pair of Browning Hi Power 9mm with Glaser Safety slugs and standard JHP rounds.
                          You also modified a Red Rider to make it into a jet gun. Thankfully, CP broke it before the test fire - fyi, the jet is supposed to be in the ammo, not the gun.


                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            You also modified a Red Rider to make it into a jet gun. Thankfully, CP broke it before the test fire - fyi, the jet is supposed to be in the ammo, not the gun.

                            In actuality after discovering that the ammo for pellet guns Edited by a Moderator delivery system.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              That was NOT my point. That was derived from Jim's argument, but it wasn't even the particular point he made. I disagree with his conclusion - but agree with the point you STILL haven't evidently understood.
                              I understand it just fine, itís based on ignorance and misunderstandings of the entire purpose of the second amendment.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                How are you defining ďnot much differentĒ for starters. A few:
                                1. ARís are not full auto.
                                They can be adjusted with a bump stock to be fully automatic. They can fire up to 400 rounds a minute and were, I believe, the weapons used by the Las Vegas shooter who killed or wounded some 500 or so people.
                                2. ARís use a smaller round.
                                Yes, they are lethal just the same.
                                3. ARís are more prone to jamming.
                                Basically irrelevant to the current discussion.
                                4. ARís are more accurate.
                                Yep.
                                Thatís just the obvious ones. They do look the similar, but they are not Ďbasically the sameí.
                                The main difference with respect to mass shootings is that the Ak47 is automatic, but the AR15 can be adjusted to be automatic.

                                I didn't bring up the AR15, you did, and no one wants to take everyones guns away, we want better, safer gun laws so that it is much more difficult for maniac's, lunatics, psychopaths to get their hands on what are basically machine guns which themselves are already outlawed.

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