Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Gun Control - moved from E-cig thread
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostYou are being purposefully obtuse Sparko. Yes, there is a reason to put and enfoce common sense rules on gun ownership. It is not a 'punishment' to submit to a background check no matter where you buy your gun, nor is it punishment to require you store the guns safely when you are not using them, or that you get training on how to use them, or even that we allow our fitness to own such weapons to be monitored. It is our responsibility to our fellow citizens. It is our responsibility to protect others from the potential danger our gun ownership presents to them.
We are not punishing drivers to require auto-insurance with uninsured motorist coverage. We are not punishing drivers by requiring them to license their vehicles or to pass certain requirements to be able to drive the vehicle. We are protecting the public from basic misuse of those vehicles.
It isn't punishment to put controls on gun ownership.
Jim
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostPeople have been killing one another for thousands of years and were far more violent in the past than today, despite even easier ways to kill than in the past. If anything, non violence is likely against our core instincts.
Jim
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo, Jim, it is not better. It is much worse. Because not only are you NOT solving the problem, you just punished millions of people for what a handful of criminals were doing and will still do.
Just because you feel helpless is no reason to punish law-abiding citizens who have the right to own these guns. Either find a real solution, or don't do anything. Just doing "something" is worse than useless.
I didn't say the threat of punishment. I said actually punishing people who are not sinning to stop those who are. Especially a very small portion of the population. If a handful of people are doing something wrong, you don't punish everyone. We don't take cars away from everyone to stop a few drunk drivers. We don't even ban liquor to stop them. Why? Because most people are responsible drinkers and drivers.
You don't just punish everyone for the problems of a few. And in the case of guns, it isn't even the guns that are the problem, it is the people using them as tools to accomplish their evil. They can always find other tools. And will. All you are accomplishing by spinning your wheels and "doing something, anything" is hurting all of the people who are NOT the problem.
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo it wouldn't Sparko. First, sharks are part of nature, they are not crazed individuals with an ax to grind that just went out and bought a sharktooth gun and are going to wipe out everything they see before something kills them. They eat for food.
Second, I'm not advocating for the removal of danger from life. That is impossible. But we do have the capacity to act in this case to reduce the number of crazed idiots that can get their hands on weapons whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible as fast as possible.
Jim
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYour equivalent solution would be to close down all beaches because some people get attacked by sharks sometimes.
Second, I'm not advocating for the removal of danger from life. That is impossible. But we do have the capacity to act in this case to reduce the number of crazed idiots that can get their hands on weapons whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible as fast as possible.
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostDoing something that turns out to be useless is a whole lot better than tossing in the towel and saying nothing can be done. "can't never could" as the saying goes.
Just because you feel helpless is no reason to punish law-abiding citizens who have the right to own these guns. Either find a real solution, or don't do anything. Just doing "something" is worse than useless.
And actually, the threat of punishment IS a deterrent for most people in terms of sinful actions. At the heart level, yes you must change people. But again, you don't stop trying just because its hard, or even if it seems unlikely to be successful. When something bad is happening, you have to try to stop it if you can. It's when people stop trying to stop evil that evil prevails.
Jim
You don't just punish everyone for the problems of a few. And in the case of guns, it isn't even the guns that are the problem, it is the people using them as tools to accomplish their evil. They can always find other tools. And will. All you are accomplishing by spinning your wheels and "doing something, anything" is hurting all of the people who are NOT the problem.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt's a failed analogy pix. I'm not shaking in fear. I think it is stupid to not put common sense controls on access to guns. In fact, it is you that is shaking in fear, fear someone will take away your guns. A fear that is so strong that you are willing to fight to stop laws that just might save hundreds of lives per year even though they would have little to no actual affect on your access to sufficiently powerful defensive weapons for use in your home.
Jim
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostPeople swim in shark infested waters everyday, without an issue.
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Postfear? Like you think I'm motivated because I think I personally might get mowed down in one of these things? Wow.
Jim
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWanting to do something about it is just human nature, Jim. Doing something useless doesn't help. Like taking away guns from law abiding citizens who don't shoot up schools. Punishing the innocent doesn't stop the criminals. The problem is a human heart problem, like any sin. You don't stop sin by punishing people who aren't sinning do you? You stop sin by changing the hearts of the people who are sinning. And only God and the Gospel can do that.
And actually, the threat of punishment IS a deterrent for most people in terms of sinful actions. At the heart level, yes you must change people. But again, you don't stop trying just because its hard, or even if it seems unlikely to be successful. When something bad is happening, you have to try to stop it if you can. It's when people stop trying to stop evil that evil prevails.
Jim
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Postdepends on where you are in the ocean ...
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThat’s a great strawman you built there because what I have actually said is we to start by enforcing laws that already exist and taking your own safety seriously. What I have pointed is you fear something there is little reason to fear. I visit stores several times a week, no mass shooter yet. Gone and seen several movies, no mass shooting there either. This list goes on and on, point? You apparently live in fear of an event happening that is so rare that really isn’t something to have a fear of. You’re far more likely to choke eating your dinner tonight than being involved in a mass shooting event.
Jim
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