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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    You have a much better chance of dying from heart disease, cancer or a car accident than being killed by a gun.
    That depends a great deal on if I'm in the room with an idiot with an AR-15.

    But I prefer to think of it this way Sparko. Sometime in the next 3 months another group of people IS going to die because someone with a semi-automatic something went nuts. So on their behalf, I'd like to try to do something to reduce the number of people facing that particular kind of death this year, or next. Or, some gang bangers are going to decide to get revenge on someone and take out some little kid standing nearby. Trying to do something about it is better, I believe, than sitting around doing nothing, and it is far better that worrying about whether or not the laws that help stop that sort of thing will keep me from getting the latest and greatest means of mowing down people quickly and cheaply so I can play with it at the range.

    Jim
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      That depends a great deal on if I'm in the room with an idiot with an AR-15.

      But I prefer to think of it this way Sparko. Sometime in the next 3 months another group of people IS going to die because someone with a semi-automatic something went nuts. So on their behalf, I'd like to try to do something to reduce the number of people facing that particular kind of death this year, or next. Or, some gang bangers are going to decide to get revenge on someone and take out some little kid standing nearby. Trying to do something about it is better, I believe, than sitting around doing nothing, and it is far better that worrying about whether or not the laws that help stop that sort of thing will keep me from getting the latest and greatest means of mowing down people quickly and cheaply so I can play with it at the range.

      Jim
      Wanting to do something about it is just human nature, Jim. Doing something useless doesn't help. Like taking away guns from law abiding citizens who don't shoot up schools. Punishing the innocent doesn't stop the criminals. The problem is a human heart problem, like any sin. You don't stop sin by punishing people who aren't sinning do you? You stop sin by changing the hearts of the people who are sinning. And only God and the Gospel can do that.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        On the other hand, if we just sit around on our hands doing nothing like you seem to prefer, if the trend continues, mass shootings will continue to rise and we will have done nothing.


        Jim
        That’s a great strawman you built there because what I have actually said is we to start by enforcing laws that already exist and taking your own safety seriously. What I have pointed is you fear something there is little reason to fear. I visit stores several times a week, no mass shooter yet. Gone and seen several movies, no mass shooting there either. This list goes on and on, point? You apparently live in fear of an event happening that is so rare that really isn’t something to have a fear of. You’re far more likely to choke eating your dinner tonight than being involved in a mass shooting event.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          That depends a great deal on if I'm in the room with an idiot with an AR-15.

          But I prefer to think of it this way Sparko. Sometime in the next 3 months another group of people IS going to die because someone with a semi-automatic something went nuts. So on their behalf, I'd like to try to do something to reduce the number of people facing that particular kind of death this year, or next. Or, some gang bangers are going to decide to get revenge on someone and take out some little kid standing nearby. Trying to do something about it is better, I believe, than sitting around doing nothing, and it is far better that worrying about whether or not the laws that help stop that sort of thing will keep me from getting the latest and greatest means of mowing down people quickly and cheaply so I can play with it at the range.

          Jim
          And in that same timeframe, hundreds of millions will not. You’re fear is as irrational as fearing the ocean because of shark attacks.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            And in that same timeframe, hundreds of millions will not. You’re fear is as irrational as fearing the ocean because of shark attacks.
            depends on where you are in the ocean ...
            He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              That’s a great strawman you built there because what I have actually said is we to start by enforcing laws that already exist and taking your own safety seriously. What I have pointed is you fear something there is little reason to fear. I visit stores several times a week, no mass shooter yet. Gone and seen several movies, no mass shooting there either. This list goes on and on, point? You apparently live in fear of an event happening that is so rare that really isn’t something to have a fear of. You’re far more likely to choke eating your dinner tonight than being involved in a mass shooting event.
              fear? Like you think I'm motivated because I think I personally might get mowed down in one of these things? Wow.

              Jim
              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                depends on where you are in the ocean ...
                People swim in shark infested waters everyday, without an issue.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Wanting to do something about it is just human nature, Jim. Doing something useless doesn't help. Like taking away guns from law abiding citizens who don't shoot up schools. Punishing the innocent doesn't stop the criminals. The problem is a human heart problem, like any sin. You don't stop sin by punishing people who aren't sinning do you? You stop sin by changing the hearts of the people who are sinning. And only God and the Gospel can do that.
                  Doing something that turns out to be useless is a whole lot better than tossing in the towel and saying nothing can be done. "can't never could" as the saying goes.

                  And actually, the threat of punishment IS a deterrent for most people in terms of sinful actions. At the heart level, yes you must change people. But again, you don't stop trying just because its hard, or even if it seems unlikely to be successful. When something bad is happening, you have to try to stop it if you can. It's when people stop trying to stop evil that evil prevails.


                  Jim
                  He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    fear? Like you think I'm motivated because I think I personally might get mowed down in one of these things? Wow.

                    Jim
                    It doesn’t matter if you fear personally or not. The reality is millions upon millions of people leave there homes performing millions upon millions of task and return safely, without running into a mass shooter. This is a factual reality, do you deny this?
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      People swim in shark infested waters everyday, without an issue.
                      It's a failed analogy pix. I'm not shaking in fear. I think it is stupid to not put common sense controls on access to guns. In fact, it is you that is shaking in fear, fear someone will take away your guns. A fear that is so strong that you are willing to fight to stop laws that just might save hundreds of lives per year even though they would have little to no actual affect on your access to sufficiently powerful defensive weapons for use in your home.

                      Jim
                      He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                      "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        depends on where you are in the ocean ...
                        Your equivalent solution would be to close down all beaches because some people get attacked by sharks sometimes.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          It's a failed analogy pix. I'm not shaking in fear. I think it is stupid to not put common sense controls on access to guns. In fact, it is you that is shaking in fear, fear someone will take away your guns. A fear that is so strong that you are willing to fight to stop laws that just might save hundreds of lives per year even though they would have little to no actual affect on your access to sufficiently powerful defensive weapons for use in your home.

                          Jim
                          How are you defining ‘common sense’? You’re not, you’re stating your opinion and pretending your opinion is some absolute fact and anyone who dares to disagree with you, must be irrational. You do live in fear and it shows, you want action, but haven’t proved your proposals will do what you claim they will do. How can they save hundreds of lives when there isn’t hundreds of victims? I see stuff like this all the time, “Follow me and look at all this wonderful stuff that will happen!” You have no evidence that your proposals will make anyone safer or will even be followed, you just think it will. It is a perfect analogy, you have no evidence your proposals will work, you just think they will.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            Doing something that turns out to be useless is a whole lot better than tossing in the towel and saying nothing can be done. "can't never could" as the saying goes.
                            No, Jim, it is not better. It is much worse. Because not only are you NOT solving the problem, you just punished millions of people for what a handful of criminals were doing and will still do.

                            Just because you feel helpless is no reason to punish law-abiding citizens who have the right to own these guns. Either find a real solution, or don't do anything. Just doing "something" is worse than useless.


                            And actually, the threat of punishment IS a deterrent for most people in terms of sinful actions. At the heart level, yes you must change people. But again, you don't stop trying just because its hard, or even if it seems unlikely to be successful. When something bad is happening, you have to try to stop it if you can. It's when people stop trying to stop evil that evil prevails.


                            Jim
                            I didn't say the threat of punishment. I said actually punishing people who are not sinning to stop those who are. Especially a very small portion of the population. If a handful of people are doing something wrong, you don't punish everyone. We don't take cars away from everyone to stop a few drunk drivers. We don't even ban liquor to stop them. Why? Because most people are responsible drinkers and drivers.

                            You don't just punish everyone for the problems of a few. And in the case of guns, it isn't even the guns that are the problem, it is the people using them as tools to accomplish their evil. They can always find other tools. And will. All you are accomplishing by spinning your wheels and "doing something, anything" is hurting all of the people who are NOT the problem.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Your equivalent solution would be to close down all beaches because some people get attacked by sharks sometimes.
                              No it wouldn't Sparko. First, sharks are part of nature, they are not crazed individuals with an ax to grind that just went out and bought a sharktooth gun and are going to wipe out everything they see before something kills them. They eat for food.

                              Second, I'm not advocating for the removal of danger from life. That is impossible. But we do have the capacity to act in this case to reduce the number of crazed idiots that can get their hands on weapons whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible as fast as possible.


                              Jim
                              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                No it wouldn't Sparko. First, sharks are part of nature, they are not crazed individuals with an ax to grind that just went out and bought a sharktooth gun and are going to wipe out everything they see before something kills them. They eat for food.

                                Second, I'm not advocating for the removal of danger from life. That is impossible. But we do have the capacity to act in this case to reduce the number of crazed idiots that can get their hands on weapons whose only purpose is to kill as many as possible as fast as possible.


                                Jim
                                People have been killing one another for thousands of years and were far more violent in the past than today, despite even easier ways to kill than in the past. If anything, non violence is likely against our core instincts.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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