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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    You are missing the point. It's 3x what you get out of a 357 magnum! That is the point. Pistols (most/all?) can't create that kind of kinetic energy. Rifles tended to be heavy or have lots of recoil or have a low number of shots before reloading. lightweight, easy to use and shoot rifles with low recoil but very high supersonic muzzle velocities create that magic balance need to require little training but enable a person to kill a lot of people easily. Especially with hollowpoint or other more deadly ammunition. So a shot from a 357 through the thigh is not going to have nearly the probability to tearing the femoral artery and fracturing the bone. A 45 hollow point might, but then the kick is bad enough it's a lot harder to hit moving targets or fire multiple rounds. And so on. There is more than one factor here, there are many factors that are much closer to optimal with something like an AR15 than with pistols or higher power but lower capacity rifles.

    And I said LIKE the AR15. There may be other weapons, maybe even a lot of other weapons, that are even MORE optimal, but less well known or less easy to acquire.

    But that said - access to ALL of them would need to be controlled.

    And honestly, after looking at the stats, you could make a case for tougher restrictions on high capacity magazines for semi-automatic pistols, and some states do limit them to 10 rounds.


    Jim
    Ah so the AR15s are magic? I am tired arguing with you about this Jim. If you want to kill a lot of people quickly, especially indoors, you would do better with a handgun. The recoil isn't that bad. Why do you think cops use handguns instead of rifles. Easier to carry, quicker to deploy, especially indoors, and you can shoot them quickly and they are deadly. That's all you need. Using an AR15 is just literal overkill. It looks scary and that is what the shooter is going for: scaring their victims. These teens are not looking for some magic combination of recoil and power and choosing an AR15. They are going for shooting and scaring as many people as possible until they are stopped. They are not ballistic geniuses. I am not even a good shooter and I can fire my 9MM at a target 20 feet away rapidly, about 2-3 rounds per second and hit the target every time, despite the recoil. And these mass shooters are not even rapid firing. They are walking through a school, popping rounds off into crowds, then walking on and shooting more. Until they are stopped.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      My 9mm Ruger has a 17 round magazine.
      yeah, glock 17 has 17, and their magazines are interchangeable, so you can use a 17 in a gun designed for 15. Heck, you can (could) get a 30 round magazine.

      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Ah so the AR15s are magic? I am tired arguing with you about this Jim. If you want to kill a lot of people quickly, especially indoors, you would do better with a handgun. The recoil isn't that bad. Why do you think cops use handguns instead of rifles. Easier to carry, quicker to deploy, especially indoors, and you can shoot them quickly and they are deadly. That's all you need. Using an AR15 is just literal overkill. It looks scary and that is what the shooter is going for: scaring their victims. These teens are not looking for some magic combination of recoil and power and choosing an AR15. They are going for shooting and scaring as many people as possible until they are stopped. They are not ballistic geniuses. I am not even a good shooter and I can fire my 9MM at a target 20 feet away rapidly, about 2-3 rounds per second and hit the target every time, despite the recoil. And these mass shooters are not even rapid firing. They are walking through a school, popping rounds off into crowds, then walking on and shooting more. Until they are stopped.
        What part of "LIKE an AR15" are you not grasping?

        What part of "there may be other weapons even more optimal" eludes you?

        Cops train Sparko. I've told the story before of a lady friend we had that was attacked in her home, she got a pistol, and the guy returned and she unloaded it on him and every bullet missed. And yes, you can use a pistol if you want to. I'm really not about banning AR15's, I'm about putting up some tough controls on guns period. And like Pix said, ENFORCE the laws we have. And COMMUNICATE between agencies and medical staff when a person is showing signs of violent behavior. One thing I've heard that makes sense is that there is a strong correlation between domestic abuse and gun violence. So maybe it's time to take guns away from people that are abusing their spouses. How many times do we hear about an jilted lover chasing down his girlfriend or ex wife and shooting her the people near her and then himself.

        There just need to be common sense laws governing the ownership of firearms. Safety training. the use of gun safes and locks. Restrictions based on violent behavior that have real teeth (mandatory jail time of you've beaten your wife and are found with a weapon on you, or of you leave a gun where a child or teenager can get to it) etc etc.


        I think law abiding, sane, stable people can handle guns just fine. But they do not need to be in the hands of unstable personalities, or unsupervised minors. And part of that is making them harder to get, so that only sane, law abiding, stable people have them.


        Jim
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-18-2019, 03:26 PM.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Jim, can you explain the difference between an AR-15 or like an AR-15 and other semi-automatic rifles?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Jim, can you explain the difference between an AR-15 or like an AR-15 and other semi-automatic rifles?
            I would think that would be self explanatory but: an AR-15 is ... an AR-15. It would mean that specific rifle banned or controlled.

            Like an AR-15 could be as specific as those weapons incorporating many of the elements of the AR15 design, of which there are several. Or it could be as broad as to mean any modern lightweight, low recoil, high magazine capacity, high velocity munitions, semi-automatic rifle.


            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              What part of "LIKE an AR15" are you not grasping?

              What part of "there may be other weapons even more optimal" eludes you?

              Cops train Sparko.
              So do civilian gun owners, Jim. I highly encourage people to train with their guns.

              I've told the story before of a lady friend we had that was attacked in her home, she got a pistol, and the guy returned and she unloaded it on him and every bullet missed. And yes, you can use a pistol if you want to. I'm really not about banning AR15's, I'm about putting up some tough controls on guns period.
              And yet your previous statement was that AR15s are so deadly they require special licensing. That is what I am trying to debate with you. They are no more deadly than any other gun. They are not even especially powerful rifles.

              And like Pix said, ENFORCE the laws we have. And COMMUNICATE between agencies and medical staff when a person is showing signs of violent behavior. One thing I've heard that makes sense is that there is a strong correlation between domestic abuse and gun violence. So maybe it's time to take guns away from people that are abusing their spouses. How many times do we hear about an jilted lover chasing down his girlfriend or ex wife and shooting her the people near her and then himself.
              Of course. We need to enforce the laws we have. But even when we do, the liberals act like we aren't. They keep calling for "stronger background checks" - we already have them. They are only as strong as the people who are doing them though, so we need to make sure they are doing a thorough job. I already said I had to go through basically 3 background checks to get my gun. State and Federal to get my handgun license, and another Federal one when I bought my gun. What more can you ask for?


              There just need to be common sense laws governing the ownership of firearms. Safety training. the use of gun safes and locks. Restrictions based on violent behavior that have real teeth (mandatory jail time of you've beaten your wife and are found with a weapon on you, or of you leave a gun where a child or teenager can get to it) etc etc.
              I am all for gun training. But you can't force people to keep their guns in safes. Do you think it is practical to have to unlock and open your safe to get your gun when your home is being invaded? And if you are the only person in the house, why would you need a safe? Or if you didn't have any children at home?

              As far as keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, yeah I am for that too, and it is already the law. If someone is convicted of a felony, they are not allowed to have a gun in every state I know of. Even AFTER they have served their sentences.



              I think law abiding, sane, stable people can handle guns just fine. But they do not need to be in the hands of unstable personalities, or unsupervised minors. And part of that is making them harder to get, so that only sane, law abiding, stable people have them.
              As far as I know that is the law now. As far as "sane" goes, how do you determine that? Do you have to make everyone see a psychiatrist and get regular checkups to own a gun? That would be an invasion of privacy and impossible to enforce. I do think that if someone already has a history of psychiatric problems, like we are finding out with the school shooting in Parkland, they should never be allowed near a gun. But the danger is that such red flag laws could be used as an excuse to take guns away from perfectly sane people by overzealous courts.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                As far as keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, yeah I am for that too, and it is already the law. If someone is convicted of a felony, they are not allowed to have a gun in every state I know of. Even AFTER they have served their sentences.
                How about this - a 5 years mandatory federal sentence if you use a firearm in the commission of a crime. No way the leftists would support it because it would effect minorities disproportionately.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  I would think that would be self explanatory but: an AR-15 is ... an AR-15. It would mean that specific rifle banned or controlled.

                  Like an AR-15 could be as specific as those weapons incorporating many of the elements of the AR15 design, of which there are several. Or it could be as broad as to mean any modern lightweight, low recoil, high magazine capacity, high velocity munitions, semi-automatic rifle.


                  Jim
                  So you want to ban 80% of all modern rifles sold. Got it.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                    So you want to ban 80% of all modern rifles sold. Got it.
                    Didn't say ban. I said law abiding mentally stable people can handle them. But we must have controls in place to prevent people that are not law abiding mentally stable people from handling them. And that will include laws to make sure proper safety precautions are taken in the storage of the guns to prevent children from getting to then without supervision, or thieves from getting them easily if they break in.


                    Jim
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      How about this - a 5 years mandatory federal sentence if you use a firearm in the commission of a crime. No way the leftists would support it because it would effect minorities disproportionately.
                      That would be good - if it doesn't exist. But I believe people that have committed violent acts (e.g. domestic violence) also need to be prohibited access to any firearm. And I don't believe it should be possible to buy a gun from anyone anywhere without a thorough background check. And I think any high capacity semi-automatic, pistol, rifle, whatever, needs to be licensed with mandatory safety training and a thorough vetting of their criminal and psychological history, perhaps with term limits on the licence much like we do drivers licences so that they are periodically re-evaluated for fitness to own such weapons.

                      Jim
                      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-19-2019, 08:39 AM.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        Didn't say ban. I said law abiding mentally stable people can handle them. But we must have controls in place to prevent people that are not law abiding mentally stable people from handling them. And that will include laws to make sure proper safety precautions are taken in the storage of the guns to prevent children from getting to then without supervision, or thieves from getting them easily if they break in.


                        Jim
                        Define ‘mentally stable’ because one shooter was under mental healthcare, deemed treated, allowed to have his weapons back, and he went as soon as he could and shot up a bar. You should know that psychology is not an exact science. I also find your safety check could be a violation of the 4th amendment and it’s an odd focus considering that accidental gun death is pretty uncommon and doesn’t even make the top ten accidental death list. I should also not safes simply alert the thief you have something valuable in there and they might want to find out what it is. A safe isn’t too hard a barrier from a professional thief. At best, it might stop the person breaking in simply to get money to buy drugs with.
                        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-19-2019, 08:49 AM.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          That would be good - if it doesn't exist. But I believe people that have committed violent acts (e.g. domestic violence) also need to be prohibited access to any firearm. And I don't believe it should be possible to buy a gun from anyone anywhere without a thorough background check. And I think any high capacity semi-automatic, pistol, rifle, whatever, needs to be licensed with mandatory safety training and a thorough vetting of their criminal and psychological history, perhaps with term limits on the licence much like we do drivers licences so that they are periodically re-evaluated for fitness to own such weapons.

                          Jim
                          I agree with most of this except licensing issue because of all the confiscation talk.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            I agree with most of this except licensing issue because of all the confiscation talk.
                            fair enough.

                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              That would be good - if it doesn't exist. But I believe people that have committed violent acts (e.g. domestic violence) also need to be prohibited access to any firearm. And I don't believe it should be possible to buy a gun from anyone anywhere without a thorough background check. And I think any high capacity semi-automatic, pistol, rifle, whatever, needs to be licensed with mandatory safety training and a thorough vetting of their criminal and psychological history, perhaps with term limits on the licence much like we do drivers licences so that they are periodically re-evaluated for fitness to own such weapons.

                              Jim
                              The domestic violence thing sounds good on paper, but a lot of domestic violence charges are he said/she said. Unless there is a conviction, you could easily end up with a spouse reporting a fake beating just to punish their wife/husband, and get their guns taken away. That is the problem with a lot of the proposed red flag laws: violation of 4th amendment. Seizing property without due process. Once there is a conviction, then it's another matter. Go for it. Part of a background check is whether you have been convicted of any crimes when you buy a gun. So I think a case could be made that if you are convicted of a violent crime later they should be able to take your gun. Which then can do if it is a felony. I don't think they can if it is a misdemeanor though.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                fair enough.

                                Jim
                                You can have a permit process that includes all the things you want, then you can purchase a firearm of your choice without registering that particular weapon with the government. And of course your could only resell it to another permit holder.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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