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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Only 38 people killed in mass shootings did not involve a semi-automatic of some kind.

    1) There is a good point to be made that semi-automatic pistols are involved in a large number of mass shootings, many times they have been the only weapons used, they certainly are on par in terms of the damage done and the people killed in raw numbers and they tend to be a backup instrument in shootings where semi-automatic rifles are used.

    2) They could not have been the primary instrument in an event like vegas. They don't have the power or the range to do that - and that alone is 58 people.

    But based on these stats, I'll take your point as valid seer. Semi-automatic pistols are realistically as much of a problem in terms of what has been done as semi-automatic rifles.


    Jim
    Well first Jim, even a revolver is semi automatic. Second, I don't distinguish between mass shooting and regular murder. Dead is dead. And the fact is most mass shootings done with a long rifle could have been done with a pistol - except the Las Vegas thing. Far more people are killed in this country by pistols as opposed to long rifles. As I said when we actually had a national ban on "assault rifles" 1994-2004 there really wasn't much, if any, effect.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Anybody who has ever gone hunting regularly can tell you that a .30-30 or 30.06 has a lot more stopping power (does far more damage to the target) than a .223 ever will.
      You are correct, but the reason why .223s are, in some cases, more deadly, is that when the round enters the body it tends to tumble causing more internal damage. A 30-30 will generally just go straight through, even if it hits bone.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Because there are a lot of variables. Velocity is just one. A 45 will do a lot more damage than an AR15, especially with a hollow point round. And using a high velocity larger caliber round in another rifle would do even more damage. The AR15 is not a military weapon and not some especially powerful gun. It is just a normal semi-automatic rifle, with some military looking accessories. It is not even a very powerful rifle as rifles go. As Little Joe said, it is illegal in many places to hunt deer with them because it is unlikely to kill the deer and leave it wounded and suffering.

        Your claim that AR15's are some especially powerful gun, worse than other guns and needs special regulations is incorrect.


        They are no more deadly than any other semi-auto gun. And yet you are not calling for the regulation of other rifles.

        1) The AR15 is a specific and well known example of semi-automatic assault style rifle. It is by no means the only such gun that needs regulating.

        2) The Ar15 has more kinetic energy in its bullet than any pistol you've listed, but has the kick of a 22 LR. this means the gun can be kept pointed at the target as rounds are fired quickly without a great deal of training.

        3) I have not made specific claims to what needs to be regulated, excepting the general class of rifle that AR15 rifle fits into. So I've not made any comments leaving out more powerful semi-automatics. But I don't think we would want to include a single shot 30.06 into the mix just because it is 'more powerful'. Raw power is not the primary consideration.

        4) Pistols are held in the hands, not up against the shoulder, and have much less recoil absorption capability, and they tend to be less accurate due to their shorter barrels, shooting position, and higher recoil.

        Hollowpoints are incredibly destructive no matter what their source. But that is more about the ammunition and how that should be regulated.

        Jim
        He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          You can’t outrun a Truck either. Ever driven around a large city? It wouldn’t be that hard to run down a few dozen people walking down the sidewalk in New York. Ever seen the security checkpoints entering these areas? Lots of easy targets. How about leaving. Is your plan to put up a barricade all over the place?
          I believe that Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel more than demonstrated this back in July 2015 when he mowed over hundreds of people in Nice, France using a cargo truck resulting in 86 dead and 458 injured.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Well first Jim, even a revolver is semi automatic.
            Most are. There are still a few single action revolvers out there.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              1) The AR15 is a specific and well known example of semi-automatic assault style rifle. It is by no means the only such gun that needs regulating.

              2) The Ar15 has more kinetic energy in its bullet than any pistol you've listed, but has the kick of a 22 LR. this means the gun can be kept pointed at the target as rounds are fired quickly without a great deal of training.

              3) I have not made specific claims to what needs to be regulated, excepting the general class of rifle that AR15 rifle fits into. So I've not made any comments leaving out more powerful semi-automatics. But I don't think we would want to include a single shot 30.06 into the mix just because it is 'more powerful'. Raw power is not the primary consideration.

              4) Pistols are held in the hands, not up against the shoulder, and have much less recoil absorption capability, and they tend to be less accurate due to their shorter barrels, shooting position, and higher recoil.

              Hollowpoints are incredibly destructive no matter what their source. But that is more about the ammunition and how that should be regulated.

              Jim
              And yet, many more die from being shot by handguns vs rifles.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                I believe that Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel more than demonstrated this back in July 2015 when he mowed over hundreds of people in Nice, France using a cargo truck resulting in 86 dead and 458 injured.
                And that sort of death toll wouldn’t be hard to repeat. The reason we don’t really see repeats is most people don’t want to run down people walking down the street.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Well first Jim, even a revolver is semi automatic. Second, I don't distinguish between mass shooting and regular murder. Dead is dead. And the fact is most mass shootings done with a long rifle could have been done with a pistol - except the Las Vegas thing. Far more people are killed in this country by pistols as opposed to long rifles. As I said when we actually had a national ban on "assault rifles" 1994-2004 there really wasn't much, if any, effect.
                  Not when it comes to reload or capacity. 6 shots typically, then you pop the bullets out and put 6 more in one at a time. A true semi automatic, you pop out the empty clip, slide in the new one, chamber the first round , and you're ready for another 10 or more shots (9MM GLOCK)

                  I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

                  Jim
                  He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Not when it comes to reload or capacity. 6 shots typically, then you pop the bullets out and put 6 more in one at a time. A true semi automatic, you pop out the empty clip, slide in the new one, chamber the first round , and you're ready for another 10 or more shots (9MM GLOCK)

                    I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

                    Jim
                    Speed loaders have been around for many decades[1] and were used regularly by law enforcement back when they carried revolvers.

















                    1. 140 years actually. From the 1879 patent for the first:

                    Last edited by rogue06; 09-18-2019, 03:25 PM.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

                      Jim
                      You do I don't. Dead is dead.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        1) The AR15 is a specific and well known example of semi-automatic assault style rifle. It is by no means the only such gun that needs regulating.

                        2) The Ar15 has more kinetic energy in its bullet than any pistol you've listed, but has the kick of a 22 LR. this means the gun can be kept pointed at the target as rounds are fired quickly without a great deal of training.

                        3) I have not made specific claims to what needs to be regulated, excepting the general class of rifle that AR15 rifle fits into. So I've not made any comments leaving out more powerful semi-automatics. But I don't think we would want to include a single shot 30.06 into the mix just because it is 'more powerful'. Raw power is not the primary consideration.

                        4) Pistols are held in the hands, not up against the shoulder, and have much less recoil absorption capability, and they tend to be less accurate due to their shorter barrels, shooting position, and higher recoil.

                        Hollowpoints are incredibly destructive no matter what their source. But that is more about the ammunition and how that should be regulated.

                        Jim
                        1. It isn't an assault weapon, by assault "style" it merely is talking about cosmetics.
                        2. The kinetic energy of a 223 is pretty much low end for a rifle. A shotgun has over 3 times as much.



                        And dead is dead. at close range you will die from a 9mm as dead as from a .223 from an AR-15.

                        3. The "general class the AR15 fits into" is middle of the road for a rifle. Nothing special.

                        4. You can shoot a pistol as fast as you can an AR15. And it is easier to maneuver in tight quarters, like indoors, where most mass shootings take place. And aiming is not a problem because these shooters are not carefully aiming their AR15s. They are just pointing and shooting at very close range.

                        There is no reason to make special regulations for AR15s.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Not when it comes to reload or capacity. 6 shots typically, then you pop the bullets out and put 6 more in one at a time. A true semi automatic, you pop out the empty clip, slide in the new one, chamber the first round , and you're ready for another 10 or more shots (9MM GLOCK)

                          I do distinguish between a single murder and mass murder.

                          Jim
                          My 9mm Ruger has a 17 round magazine.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            My 9mm Ruger has a 17 round magazine.
                            roguetech has a 30 shot revolver



                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              1. It isn't an assault weapon, by assault "style" it merely is talking about cosmetics.
                              2. The kinetic energy of a 223 is pretty much low end for a rifle. A shotgun has over 3 times as much.



                              And dead is dead. at close range you will die from a 9mm as dead as from a .223 from an AR-15.

                              3. The "general class the AR15 fits into" is middle of the road for a rifle. Nothing special.

                              4. You can shoot a pistol as fast as you can an AR15. And it is easier to maneuver in tight quarters, like indoors, where most mass shootings take place. And aiming is not a problem because these shooters are not carefully aiming their AR15s. They are just pointing and shooting at very close range.

                              There is no reason to make special regulations for AR15s.
                              You are missing the point. It's 3x what you get out of a 357 magnum! That is the point. Pistols (most/all?) can't create that kind of kinetic energy. Rifles tended to be heavy or have lots of recoil or have a low number of shots before reloading. lightweight, easy to use and shoot rifles with low recoil but very high supersonic muzzle velocities create that magic balance need to require little training but enable a person to kill a lot of people easily. Especially with hollowpoint or other more deadly ammunition. So a shot from a 357 through the thigh is not going to have nearly the probability to tearing the femoral artery and fracturing the bone. A 45 hollow point might, but then the kick is bad enough it's a lot harder to hit moving targets or fire multiple rounds. And so on. There is more than one factor here, there are many factors that are much closer to optimal with something like an AR15 than with pistols or higher power but lower capacity rifles.

                              And I said LIKE the AR15. There may be other weapons, maybe even a lot of other weapons, that are even MORE optimal, but less well known or less easy to acquire.

                              But that said - access to ALL of them would need to be controlled.

                              And honestly, after looking at the stats, you could make a case for tougher restrictions on high capacity magazines for semi-automatic pistols, and some states do limit them to 10 rounds.


                              Jim
                              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                roguetech has a 30 shot revolver


                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]39769[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]39770[/ATTACH]
                                Reloading would take a while ...

                                Robin: holy revolving chambers batman - what is THAT!

                                bang bang bang bang ... bang bang

                                Batman: Hold on Robin, If I remember correctly ... that particular weapon had 30 shots. lets see 28, 29, 30 ... go

                                <Biff> <Blatt> <Zing> <Smack>

                                Robin: Well, we got him Batman. Wait till Commissioner Gordon sees THIS!
                                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-18-2019, 04:09 PM.
                                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                                Comment

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