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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    It may be the least powerful, I don't know, but the use of it killed 58 innocent people and wouned another 422 in the Las Vegas shooting.
    Right and the worse school shooting in the US was done with two very generic pistols.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Right and the worse school shooting in the US was done with two very generic pistols.
      Did they kill 58 people with the capacity to have killed 480 in a matter of minutes?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Ironic how you can impugn upon me all you want and itís okay, but God forbid anyone do it back. Do you know what the most common causes of accidents are? Human error.
        I didn't impugn you. You impugned me, and then I asked why you did that.


        Try what? We canít even enforce the laws we already have, with competence, so what makes you think we can enforce new ones any better?
        I don't think that is a valid excuse no to make new laws, especially if the new laws address areas not handled by the existing laws. But it is a good reason to step up enforcement of the existing laws.


        There is? What is your plan for dealing with these unregulated guns? Ask people nicely to turn them in? How well did that work in New Zealand? The only way to actually make your plan work is to break the law and search every home in America. You think itís a blood bath now, try that and see what you get. I¬ím not pessimistic, I live in reality and you clearly donít.
        So you do, in fact believe there is no way out. Ok - fine. But it doesn't change the fact easy access to tons of guns is part of the problem. And again, I'm not as pessimistic as you are about both what can be done and how people on the whole will react to it.

        Thatís his opinion and heís welcome to it. I say if you keep yourself out of trouble and take some basic safety steps, youíll likely live a long life.
        It was a statistic pix, not an opinion. More knife deaths here than in England as well, which points to a more violent culture.


        Look at the details and youíll find glaring problems where existing laws were poorly enforced. The Texas Church shooter had a domestic violence convection on his record. How did he get it? The Air Force didn¬ít file the paperwork. The parkland shooter had a history of violence with the police showing up at his house, dozens of times yet not a single arrest was made. El Paso shooter? He was denied, due to mental health reasons, so he bought one illegally. Why wasnít he investigated?
        Thankfully, that is changing. Again, we need to adapt. Existing Federal laws allow me to buy an AR15 at a gun show with no background check. That needs to change.


        Like I said above, stay out of trouble and take your own safety in mind and youíll likely be fine. We are living in one of the safest periods, in American history.
        That is - as far as I'm concerned - a head in the sand approach that simply is not acceptable. And your last statement just is not true as regards gun violence and especially mass shootings of the innocent. And that is the problem we are trying to solve with increased restrictions on gun ownership - especially for the sorts of weapons that are often used in these situations.

        Jim
        He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Did they kill 58 people with the capacity to have killed 480 in a matter of minutes?
          No he killed 32 in a matter of minutes, and the guy in Nice France killed 86 people and injured 458 others with a truck.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            I didn't impugn you. You impugned me, and then I asked why you did that.
            Iím not. Simply stating an observed fact.

            I don't think that is a valid excuse no to make new laws, especially if the new laws address areas not handled by the existing laws. But it is a good reason to step up enforcement of the existing laws.
            Yeah it is a good reason because you canít really grasp how effective your hazard controls are, if they are not being used or used poorly.

            So you do, in fact believe there is no way out. Ok - fine. But it doesn't change the fact easy access to tons of guns is part of the problem. And again, I'm not as pessimistic as you are about both what can be done and how people on the whole will react to it.
            Itís not pessimism at all, itís observed evidence based upon fact. Itís being tried in New Zealand right now and thus far:

            So far, owners have turned in more than 15,000 newly banned guns as well as 64,000 parts and accessories. In return, the government has handed them 32 million New Zealand dollars ($20 million). But nobody has a clear target for the program because authorities haven't kept track of the number of guns in the country.

            Tentative estimates put the total number of guns in New Zealand at about 1.5 million and the number of weapons that are now banned at up to 175,000. If those numbers are correct, it would mean less than 10% of the banned weapons have been handed in so far. Owners have until Dec. 20 to turn them over or potentially face charges.
            https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/h...ing-6-weeks-in


            Pessimism or reality, you decide.

            It was a statistic pix, not an opinion. More knife deaths here than in England as well, which points to a more violent culture.
            You know what they say, ĎFigures donít lie, but liars figure.í Raw statical data doesnít tell us much. It is an opinion because you have no evidence that they average American is more violent or faces more violent threats. Where does most of it happen and what are the causes. Thatís the analysis question.

            Thankfully, that is changing. Again, we need to adapt. Existing Federal laws allow me to buy an AR15 at a gun show with no background check. That needs to change.
            And if that was true, how many mass shooters or killers obtained their weapons at gun shows? Ever been to a gun show. Take a trip sometime and see if your can do what you claim you can do.

            That is - as far as I'm concerned - a head in the sand approach that simply is not acceptable. And your last statement just is not true as regards gun violence and especially mass shootings of the innocent. And that is the problem we are trying to solve with increased restrictions on gun ownership - especially for the sorts of weapons that are often used in these situations.
            Name one place youíve been, that have had a mass shooting while you were there. Iíll wait.
            Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 11:03 AM.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              No he killed 32 in a matter of minutes, and the guy in Nice France killed 86 people and injured 458 others with a truck.
              No, he killed 58 and wounded another 422. And you can't outrun a bullit. With the truck there are ways to protect against where there are large crowds of people which I'm sure the authorities in France have taken into consideration. Just because a maniac could do it using some other tactic is no reason to ignore the other situation. Excuses!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                Yeah it is a good reason because you canít really grasp how effective your hazard controls are, if they are not being used or used poorly.
                You can tell if an area that allowed a shooter to do his thing is illegal or not. Even if existing laws are not properly enforced, you can know if there are loopholes and if those loopholes allowed the shooter to do his thing. And I gave an example later in the post. I can avoid background checks (at least in some states) if I buy from a private person or at a gun show.


                the discussion is degrading from this point, so I'm going to thank you for a mostly clean discussion to this point and close my part with you off before it has a chance to go too far south.


                Jim
                He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  You can tell if an area that allowed a shooter to do his thing is illegal or not. Even if existing laws are not properly enforced, you can know if there are loopholes and if those loopholes allowed the shooter to do his thing. And I gave an example later in the post. I can avoid background checks (at least in some states) if I buy from a private person or at a gun show.
                  How would passing a law prevent someone from doing it anyway and how many shooters have bought their guns from gun-shows?

                  the discussion is degrading from this point, so I'm going to thank you for a mostly clean discussion to this point and close my part with you off before it has a chance to go too far south.
                  Thatís your choice.
                  Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 11:43 AM.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    No, he killed 58 and wounded another 422. And you can't outrun a bullit. With the truck there are ways to protect against where there are large crowds of people which I'm sure the authorities in France have taken into consideration. Just because a maniac could do it using some other tactic is no reason to ignore the other situation. Excuses!
                    You canít outrun a Truck either. Ever driven around a large city? It wouldnít be that hard to run down a few dozen people walking down the sidewalk in New York. Ever seen the security checkpoints entering these areas? Lots of easy targets. How about leaving. Is your plan to put up a barricade all over the place?
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      It may be the least powerful, I don't know, but the use of it killed 58 innocent people and wouned another 422 in the Las Vegas shooting.
                      The Vegas shooter had 23 different guns, JimL. They were not all AR15s. He had fully automatic AK47s, a .308 AR-10, 4 DDM4 rifles, 3 FN-15s and several other rifles. And the AR15s were modified for full auto using the bump stocks. So the vegas shooting is not a good example to defend Ox arguing that the AR15s are super special killing weapons that need to be controlled. It wasn't one gun, it was a freaking arsenal and he had a bird's eye view of a packed crowd who had nowhere to run.
                      Last edited by Sparko; 09-18-2019, 12:01 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Right and the worse school shooting in the US was done with two very generic pistols.
                        could be misleading as worded - let's look at the whole story regarding mass shootings:

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_s..._United_States

                        Total killed:510
                        Total with semi-automatic weapons used: 472
                        Total killed just with semi-automatic pistols: 189
                        Total killed just with semi-automatic rifles:184

                        99 of the 472 killed with semi-automatics involved a combination of both rifles and pistols.

                        If we take those that involved semiautomatic rifles + something else we get: 282
                        If we take those that involved semi-automatic pistols + something else we get: 288


                        Only 38 people killed in mass shootings did not involve a semi-automatic of some kind.

                        1) There is a good point to be made that semi-automatic pistols are involved in a large number of mass shootings, many times they have been the only weapons used, they certainly are on par in terms of the damage done and the people killed in raw numbers and they tend to be a backup instrument in shootings where semi-automatic rifles are used.

                        2) They could not have been the primary instrument in an event like vegas. They don't have the power or the range to do that - and that alone is 58 people.

                        But based on these stats, I'll take your point as valid seer. Semi-automatic pistols are realistically as much of a problem in terms of what has been done as semi-automatic rifles.


                        Jim
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-18-2019, 12:31 PM.
                        He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          could be misleading as worded - let's look at the whole story regarding mass shootings:

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_s..._United_States

                          Total killed:510
                          Total with semi-automatic weapons used: 472
                          Total killed just with semi-automatic pistols: 189
                          Total killed just with semi-automatic rifles:184

                          99 of the 472 killed with semi-automatics involved a combination of both rifles and pistols.

                          If we take those that involved semiautomatic rifles + something else we get: 282
                          If we take those that involved semi-automatic pistols + something else we get: 288


                          Only 38 people killed in mass shootings did not involve a semi-automatic of some kind.

                          1) There is a good point to be made that semi-automatic pistols are involved in a large number of mass shootings, many times they have been the only weapons used, they certainly are on par in terms of the damage done and the people killed in raw numbers and they tend to be a backup instrument in shootings where semi-automatic rifles are used.

                          2) They could not have been the primary instrument in an event like vegas. They don't have the power or the range to do that - and that alone is 58 people.

                          But based on these stats, I'll take your point as valid seer. Semi-automatic pistols are realistically as much of a problem in terms of what has been done as semi-automatic rifles.


                          Jim
                          Your initial claim was that AR15's are too powerful to be left unregulated. As Seer and I have pointed out, and you seem to be admitting above, they are no more powerful than any other semi-automatic gun when it comes to killing people. Sure you might have more RANGE with a rifle, but an AR-15 is not what you would call a sniper's weapon. Even with a scope it is not that accurate. More accurate than a handgun but not more accurate than an actual hunting rifle, or a sniper's rifle. And for killing up close, a handgun is just as powerful and deadly. Especially something like a .45 caliber. An AR15 (.22 caliber) might put a hole in you the size of a pencil, a 45 cal will put a hole in you close to the slze of a golf ball. And you can get magazines that hold just as much as an AR15, plus you could carry two of them and shoot twice as many, twice as fast.



                          So your claim about the powerfulness of AR15s is just wrong. There is no special need to control those guns over any other one.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Your initial claim was that AR15's are too powerful to be left unregulated. As Seer and I have pointed out, and you seem to be admitting above, they are no more powerful than any other semi-automatic gun when it comes to killing people. Sure you might have more RANGE with a rifle, but an AR-15 is not what you would call a sniper's weapon. Even with a scope it is not that accurate. More accurate than a handgun but not more accurate than an actual hunting rifle, or a sniper's rifle. And for killing up close, a handgun is just as powerful and deadly. Especially something like a .45 caliber. An AR15 (.22 caliber) might put a hole in you the size of a pencil, a 45 cal will put a hole in you close to the slze of a golf ball. And you can get magazines that hold just as much as an AR15, plus you could carry two of them and shoot twice as many, twice as fast.



                            So your claim about the powerfulness of AR15s is just wrong. There is no special need to control those guns over any other one.
                            We've been over this before. The higher velocity round does a great deal more damage passing through a body than the lower velocity round. Then there is the type of ammunition used where again the greater velocity and power enables more lethal designs. An ar15 using the right ammo can put a much larger hole on the exit than the entry and do a lot more damage internally on its way through.

                            You know this Sparko, why are you dragging this out again?

                            Jim
                            He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              We've been over this before. The higher velocity round does a great deal more damage passing through a body than the lower velocity round. Then there is the type of ammunition used where again the greater velocity and power enables more lethal designs. An ar15 using the right ammo can put a much larger hole on the exit than the entry and do a lot more damage internally on its way through.

                              You know this Sparko, why are you dragging this out again?

                              Jim
                              Because there are a lot of variables. Velocity is just one. A 45 will do a lot more damage than an AR15, especially with a hollow point round. And using a high velocity larger caliber round in another rifle would do even more damage. The AR15 is not a military weapon and not some especially powerful gun. It is just a normal semi-automatic rifle, with some military looking accessories. It is not even a very powerful rifle as rifles go. As Little Joe said, it is illegal in many places to hunt deer with them because it is unlikely to kill the deer and leave it wounded and suffering.

                              Your claim that AR15's are some especially powerful gun, worse than other guns and needs special regulations is incorrect.
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              However, the AR15 is still too powerful, too useful for killing lots of people quickly to be unlicensed in some form.
                              They are no more deadly than any other semi-auto gun. And yet you are not calling for the regulation of other rifles.
                              Last edited by Sparko; 09-18-2019, 01:35 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Because there are a lot of variables. Velocity is just one. A 45 will do a lot more damage than an AR15, especially with a hollow point round. And using a high velocity larger caliber round in another rifle would do even more damage. The AR15 is not a military weapon and not some especially powerful gun. It is just a normal semi-automatic rifle, with some military looking accessories. It is not even a very powerful rifle as rifles go. As Little Joe said, it is illegal in many places to hunt deer with them because it is unlikely to kill the deer and leave it wounded and suffering.

                                Your claim that AR15's are some especially powerful gun, worse than other guns and needs special regulations is incorrect. They are no more deadly than any other semi-auto gun. And yet you are not calling for the regulation of other rifles.
                                Anybody who has ever gone hunting regularly can tell you that a .30-30 or 30.06 has a lot more stopping power (does far more damage to the target) than a .223 ever will.

                                And the fact that AR-15s make horrible deer rifles (underpowered) has been brought up several times. For instance:
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Explaining why nearly a dozen states prohibit their use in deer hunting.

                                It is getting to the point that I'm starting to think that this is being purposefully ignored since it contradicts the "narrative."

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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