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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Well yes to a degree. For instance we have higher death rate by knife than England.

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/05/05/...nd-uk-compare-
    So maybe something about our culture is just more prone to violence then. Interesting, though not entirely surpising.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Can they do the same thing with a truck?


      On the evening of 14 July 2016, a 19-tonne cargo truck was deliberately driven into crowds of people celebrating Bastille Day on the Promenade des Anglais in Nice, France, resulting in the deaths of 86 people and the injury of 458 others


      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_truck_attack
      Indeed they can. And we will have to adapt to deal with that possibility - barricades to keep autos and trucks out of areas where there are a large number of pedestrians probably, and increased security at public events.

      The issue with guns in the US is that we refuse to adapt, and so a high powered, lightweight, low recoil, semi-automatic gun or rifle, in the us, is a relatively easy way to create this sort of mayhem - if you are a person willing to die as part of the operation.

      Jim
      He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

      "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        I'm not as pessimistic as you are.
        Being a manager and supervisor has a tendency to expose one to the reality of human nature.

        1) the evidence is that gun control works. Most (western?) countries
        And how many of these countries had a large pro gun culture with hundreds of millions of guns, in private hands? You should know that just because X solution worked at A place, doesnít mean it will work at B and C.

        A) do not have the problems with mass shootings we do
        No, they just have the chance you might get run over or stabbed in the streets, but as I pointed out, just because you think something worked there, doesn’t mean it will work here too.

        B) do not have the sort of lax gun control laws we do.
        Which doesnít change the fact that many gun laws are poorly enforced. How does enacting more laws, solve the issue of poor enforcement?

        So unless you are willing to say those countries are just better at raising decent people, there is a high probability lack of control is a big part of the problem
        Define better. Countries donít exist in vacuums. Thereís lots of factors that effect things. Japan is a country with a history of following laws and has really low criminal rates; however; this same culture also puts stress on success and failures are treated far worse. As a result, Japan also has higher suicide rates. Have you been to Europe or lived there? You think the US is bad about racism, try parts of Europe. Thereís no such thing as a perfect society, they all have there gives and takes.

        That said - I AGREE with you that lax enforcement is also a problem and that we certainly need to correct that and other issues along the way. Would that alone be sufficient? I have my doubts.
        You canít know how effective something is without follow through.

        The issue of the NRA interfering with research into gun violence is inexcusable. The fear of bias is generally unfounded as it was with Tobacco, and as it is with Global Warming or the Theory or Evolution. Scientists - as long as they are left to do their jobs - generally are a group of people committed to knowledge and to high standards of integrity. And those standards are enforced. Shoddy workmanship or tampering with the data usually results in the end of a career as a scientist.
        You should go and read the reasons why. Itís quite interesting really.
        Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 09:24 AM.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          So maybe something about our culture is just more prone to violence then. Interesting, though not entirely surpising.
          Well yes, I think we have always been rather violent.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Indeed they can. And we will have to adapt to deal with that possibility - barricades to keep autos and trucks out of areas where there are a large number of pedestrians probably, and increased security at public events.

            The issue with guns in the US is that we refuse to adapt, and so a high powered, lightweight, low recoil, semi-automatic gun or rifle, in the us, is a relatively easy way to create this sort of mayhem - if you are a person willing to die as part of the operation.
            Ever bought one?
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              Being a manager and supervisor has a tendency to expose one to the reality of human nature.
              Implying I don't understand hunan nature. Really pix, is this necessary?

              So to clarify: I am not as pessimistic as you are ABOUT OUR CAPACITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF WE TRY.


              And how many of these countries had a large pro gun culture with hundreds of millions of guns, in private hands? You should know that just because X solution worked at A place, doesn’t mean it will work at B and C.
              Doesn't change the fact that to many and unregulated guns is a big part of the problem. All you are saying is there is no way out of this mess, and again, I am less pessimistic than you are.




              No, they just have the chance you might get run over or stabbed in the streets, but as I pointed out, just because you think something worked there, doesn’t mean it will work here too.
              According to seers post (as regards knives anyway) you are still safer there than here. Which tends to imply we, as a people, are just more violent period.



              Which doesn’t change the fact that many gun laws are poorly enforced. How does enacting more laws, solve the issue of poor enforcement?
              You have a point. It would depend no whether the laws that exist address the enhanced threat posed the class of weapon typically symbolized by the AR15. But it it can be shown that 90% of these shootings could have been stopped just by enforcing existing laws, then that would be a really good place to start. But if there are obvious, glaring holes in the existing laws as it relates to mass shootings, then we need to pass laws to plug those holes (and enforce them, of course)


              Define ¬Ďbetter¬í. Countries don¬ít exist in vacuums. There¬ís lots of factors that effect things. Japan is a country with a history of following laws and has really low criminal rates; however; this same culture also puts stress on success and failures are treated far worse. As a result, Japan also has higher suicide rates. Have you been to Europe or lived there? You think the US is bad about racism, try parts of Europe. There¬ís no such thing as a perfect society, they all have their gives and takes.
              I wasn't claiming they are perfect - we are talking about mass shootings. However, I don't think there is a correlation between any of the negatives you mention as relates to these countries with less violent cultures and being a country where gun violence is among the worst in the civilized world. So bringing it up seems more a distraction than any sort of actual counter argument.


              Jim
              He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Guns are weapons designed to kill. That is what they are meant to do. Commercial Airplanes are not weapons designed to kill. They are a means of transportation. That is what they are meant to do.

                There is no meaningful analogy here.

                Jim
                The article was making fun of the NYT article blaming the airplanes for 911 and then humorously dealing with them like liberals want to do with guns, because like liberals do, they blame the guns for the deaths, not the people using them. They want to ban guns as the culprit. So since the NYT was blaming the planes for 911, we should ban planes.

                Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Free speech is not a weapon designed to kill. It is a mechanism that ensures a despot can't hide truth from people, a mechanism that preserves the free expression of ideas.
                  Guns are used to protect lives and those very freedoms you hold dear.

                  Yet both can be used to harm others too. So if you want to ban guns because they can be misused by people then you should ban free speech too. It has damaged a lot more people than guns have. The pen is mightier than the sword (or gun)
                  both for good and for ill.

                  Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    It is not ONLY about saving lives seer. It is about preventing random acts of murder on a massive scale.
                    They aren't random. They are premeditated by sick human beings. The guns don't randomly go out and shoot people. If you want to solve the problem, then deal with the actual cause, the people ...not the tools.

                    Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      No seer. For about the fourth time, you can't make the sort of generalizations you are making that are allowing you to make these absurd arguments. This isn't just about stopping people from dying. It's not even about stopping murder. Its about pushing back against mass murder with the easiest to use, easiest to acquire, and least regulated means available to the general public.
                      Basically what you just said is that it isn't about the murders or deaths, it is about confiscating your guns.

                      Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        How can I stop what I haven't been doing? You want to post an example of me doing that?

                        However, the AR15 is still too powerful, too useful for killing lots of people quickly to be unlicensed in some form.

                        Jim

                        You keep saying this but it is not true. It is no more powerful than any other sem-auto rifle. In fact there are much more powerful hunting rifles out there. And as far as killing a lot of people quickly, any semi-auto rifle or pistol could do the same. There is nothing more powerful about an AR15.

                        Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          Implying I don't understand hunan nature. Really pix, is this necessary?
                          Ironic how you can impugn upon me all you want and itís okay, but God forbid anyone do it back. Do you know what the most common causes of accidents are? Human error.

                          So to clarify: I am not as pessimistic as you are ABOUT OUR CAPACITY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IF WE TRY.
                          Try what? We canít even enforce the laws we already have, with competence, so what makes you think we can enforce new ones any better?

                          Doesn't change the fact that to many and unregulated guns is a big part of the problem. All you are saying is there is no way out of this mess, and again, I am less pessimistic than you are.
                          There is? What is your plan for dealing with these unregulated guns? Ask people nicely to turn them in? How well did that work in New Zealand? The only way to actually make your plan work is to break the law and search every home in America. You think itís a blood bath now, try that and see what you get. I¬ím not pessimistic, I live in reality and you clearly donít.

                          According to seers post (as regards knives anyway) you are still safer there than here. Which tends to imply we, as a people, are just more violent period.
                          Thatís his opinion and heís welcome to it. I say if you keep yourself out of trouble and take some basic safety steps, youíll likely live a long life.

                          You have a point. It would depend no whether the laws that exist address the enhanced threat posed the class of weapon typically symbolized by the AR15. But it it can be shown that 90% of these shootings could have been stopped just by enforcing existing laws, then that would be a really good place to start. But if there are obvious, glaring holes in the existing laws as it relates to mass shootings, then we need to pass laws to plug those holes (and enforce them, of course)
                          Look at the details and youíll find glaring problems where existing laws were poorly enforced. The Texas Church shooter had a domestic violence convection on his record. How did he get it? The Air Force didn¬ít file the paperwork. The parkland shooter had a history of violence with the police showing up at his house, dozens of times yet not a single arrest was made. El Paso shooter? He was denied, due to mental health reasons, so he bought one illegally. Why wasnít he investigated?

                          I wasn't claiming they are perfect - we are talking about mass shootings. However, I don't think there is a correlation between any of the negatives you mention as relates to these countries with less violent cultures and being a country where gun violence is among the worst in the civilized world. So bringing it up seems more a distraction than any sort of actual counter argument.
                          Like I said above, stay out of trouble and take your own safety in mind and youíll likely be fine. We are living in one of the safest periods, in American history.
                          Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 09-18-2019, 10:14 AM.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            The article was making fun of the NYT article blaming the airplanes for 911 and then humorously dealing with them like liberals want to do with guns, because like liberals do, they blame the guns for the deaths, not the people using them. They want to ban guns as the culprit. So since the NYT was blaming the planes for 911, we should ban planes.
                            I get that, but I don't think there is a reasonable extension to be made. It IS absurd to apply a valid paradigm for dealing with gun violence to how to deal with the misuse of Commercial Airplanes. But that does not mean the paradigm itself is absurd when applied to guns. For the reason mentioned in the post you are replying to: Guns are (mostly) portable weapons designed to kill. Commercial Airplanes are not.

                            Jim
                            He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                              We've discussed guns before so, I know you're not ignorant about the subject. So, I don't know where you get this idea. Because ALL center fire rifles are powerful weapons...ALL of them. Of them, the .223/5.56 round that is the standard caliber for AR 15's is one of the least powerful in center fire rifles...easily in the bottom 1/3rd. It is illegal to hunt deer with it in several states because of that fact. (Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Washington, and West Virginia require larger bullets to be used to hunt game.)

                              If you want a powerful gun for killing, a Remington Model 700 in a .243 (6mm Remington) or .308 would be a better choice.
                              It may be the least powerful, I don't know, but the use of it killed 58 innocent people and wouned another 422 in the Las Vegas shooting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                I get that, but I don't think there is a reasonable extension to be made. It IS absurd to apply a valid paradigm for dealing with gun violence to how to deal with the misuse of Commercial Airplanes. But that does not mean the paradigm itself is absurd when applied to guns. For the reason mentioned in the post you are replying to: Guns are (mostly) portable weapons designed to kill. Commercial Airplanes are not.

                                Jim

                                Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

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