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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    As you so often do, you begin with your opinion, or the opinions of others, or your own definition, then you attempt to warp science to fit that false premise.
    Not at all. For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being. It is when the brain-function ceases or enters a vegetative state that the life-support system is switched off in ICU’s.

    The SCIENCE of biology clearly states that "At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and sex are set. If the sperm has a Y chromosome, your baby will be a boy. If it has an X chromosome, the baby will be a girl." That, Tass, is beyond dispute.
    So?

    At that moment, a brand new life exists that never existed before, complete with its very own unique DNA. That, Tass, is without dispute. So what species is this life? Is it bovine, or porcine or equine, or vulcan, or extraterrestrial? It is human life.
    So?

    What you have to do to defend abortion is:
    No. What YOU have to do is defend denying a woman’s right of choice to end a pregnancy. R v W quite reasonably maintained this right for women during the first trimester, which is when virtually ALL abortions are performed. The rights of the fetus are protected in the third trimester when the fetus is a viable entity, whereby the state could choose to "regulate, or proscribe abortion" as long as the life and health of the mother was protected.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Totally ignoring the SCIENCE of biology
      If the science of biology actually lent itself to anti-abortion viewpoints, wouldn't you expect the strongest anti-abortion advocates to be biologists? Instead what we seem to see is its US right-wing Christians who are anti-abortion, and the scientists in the world are perfectly fine with abortion in general.

      In my current job, most of the scientists I'm working with are biologists (it's not my own scientific background, so I'm learning lots from them). From comments I've heard them make at lunch when the conversation turns to random subjects, the majority of the biologists seem to find anti-abortion views somewhere between hilarious and idiotic. I've never heard any of them express support for anti-abortion views. I've certainly never heard of the idea that biological scientists as a whole thought their science lent anti-abortion views any sort of credence.

      Trust the science
      It's pleasantly surprising to see this attitude expressed by you. Sadly, I doubt you mean it, and doubt you actually tend to take seriously science in general, and suspect you're just using it here because you want to try and bully people to believe your strange and crazy views as to how modern biological science relates to the issue of abortion.

      The SCIENCE of biology clearly states that "At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and sex are set. If the sperm has a Y chromosome, your baby will be a boy. If it has an X chromosome, the baby will be a girl." That, Tass, is beyond dispute.
      As I mentioned, I'm still learning lots from the biological scientists I've been working with. However, I've learned enough to know that no part of your statement here is true. How it actually works is ridiculously complicated. You get effects like mosaicism, X chromosome inactivation etc, and a lot of these things are fields of very active research.

      As for whether you can know from the instant of fertilization whether it can be a boy or a girl... this chart was put on the wall my office by one of the biologists to explain how genetics does or doesn't translate into sex...



      As you can see, it's complicated. And not fully determined at the instant of conception.

      At that moment, a brand new life exists that never existed before
      That also happens whenever a bacteria multiplies.

      complete with its very own unique DNA.
      Why is that important? If it's an identical twin, it will share its DNA with another lifeform. Is that bad? Also, plenty of the cells in your own body have their own unique DNA due to mutations over your lifetime. Those cells are alive, in and of themselves, and meet the biological definition of life, and they have human DNA.

      What you have to do to defend abortion is:
      A) Hide behind a court decision that even many pro-choice liberals agree was horrible legal reasoning, inventing a "right" that never existed existed in the constitution
      ??? I can perfectly well think abortion ought to be legal, without necessarily agreeing with the legal reasoning of a historic US lawsuit.

      Invent your own definition of what a "human being" is to validate the "right" of one human to hire somebody to destroy the life of another human (human life).
      Anti-abortionist arguments always seem to come back to these sorts of plays on words and semi-philosophical ideas. Doesn't seem to have much to do with biology. Much more to do with really bad philosophy.

      biology clearly shows that a brand new life is created at conception
      Biology would say the sperm and the egg were themselves alive. So in that sense, at their merging you've actually reduced the number of lifeforms not created one.

      The offspring of two members of a species is always the same type of creature as the parents. No two dogs will ever conceive and give birth to a cat; no fish egg will ever produce a snake.
      Is this supposed to be an anti-evolution argument? Aren't you pretending to believe and support biological science for the purposes of your posts in this thread?

      It's kinda weird you seem to seriously and really believe that the science is on your side on this issue. I suspect is a case of extreme wishful thinking on your part. I think most biological scientists would fall over laughing if you seriously told them straight-faced that modern biological science proved the anti-abortion viewpoint.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Wrong. Electroencephalograms have been detecting brain waves as early as 6 to 6˝ weeks since back in the mid-1950s and this has been confirmed multiple times since then. As Parents Magazine succinctly puts it in their series about the development of the baby at week 6 "brain waves can now be recorded."

        Even if you don't accept that life begins at conception, the fact that there is both a heartbeat (between 5˝ and 7 weeks) and brain activity (6 to 6˝ weeks) indicates that at 12 to 16 weeks they are snuffing out a life

        Time for you to move the goalposts again.
        " Brain development: When does consciousness begin? For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being, as this is where our thoughts, feelings, and conscious minds come from. Some people are concerned with abortions after six weeks of pregnancy because that is when a basic spinal cord and nervous system first develop, but it is not until week eight (six weeks post-fertilisation) that the first rudimentary brain activity – the kind that is observed in organisms as simple as insects – can be observed. The very beginnings of our higher brain structures only start to appear between weeks 12 and 16. Crucially, the co-ordinated brain activity required for consciousness does not occur until 24-25 weeks of pregnancy. We cannot say when consciousness first emerges, but it cannot rationally be called before the end of the second trimester at 24 weeks of pregnancy".

        https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/t...tion-1.3506968
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          " Brain development: When does consciousness begin? For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being, as this is where our thoughts, feelings, and conscious minds come from. Some people are concerned with abortions after six weeks of pregnancy because that is when a basic spinal cord and nervous system first develop, but it is not until week eight (six weeks post-fertilisation) that the first rudimentary brain activity – the kind that is observed in organisms as simple as insects – can be observed. The very beginnings of our higher brain structures only start to appear between weeks 12 and 16. Crucially, the co-ordinated brain activity required for consciousness does not occur until 24-25 weeks of pregnancy. We cannot say when consciousness first emerges, but it cannot rationally be called before the end of the second trimester at 24 weeks of pregnancy".

          https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/t...tion-1.3506968
          Indeed, most people who aren't anti-abortion-extremists seem to regard some sort of mental attributes as key for determining whether they think abortion is okay or not. They care about the mind not the body.

          And indeed, we use the same sort of logic at the other end of life when a person is in a coma and on life-support, and we are considering whether to 'pull the plug', and we are wondering whether 'they' are gone or whether 'they' are ever coming back, and the 'they' we are concerned with is their mind, not their body: We're okay with letting their body die only if we can be convinced their mind is permanently gone. Because what matters is the mind, not the body.

          It's amazing, to me, that the anti-abortionists can't seem to comprehend this focus on the mind rather than the body. In all of CP's weird misunderstandings of modern biological science, he focuses on the body, on the formation of a new body that is a member of the human species, as if that had any relevance whatsoever. He can't seem to see how totally irrelevant his prattling is to an audience that is interested in the mind not the body.

          It's funny, cos you'd think a group of people who tend to buy into the idea of an immaterial soul and the idea that it's not the body that's important it's the soul, would be able to understand somebody else taking the view that it's the mind that's important not the body. But they don't seem to be able to. Dunno whether they lack the empathy or the brainpower.

          Of course, it's worth noting that among the majority group who thinks the mind is what's important, and who thinks abortion should be limited/illegal after a certain brain-development threshold is reached, there isn't universal agreement about what threshold is most important. Some point to consciousness as the most important attribute (which is pretty much impossible to test for scientifically at the present time), others point to the ability to feel pain (which possible presumes consciousness). I myself tend to place higher importance on much higher level cognitive functions (thoughts, intentions, language, an understanding of self, beliefs, long term goals) and am correspondingly not particularly worried about late-term abortions when things like consciousness may be present but when most of these high level cognitive functions are still years from developing.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Not at all. For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being....
            You can keep repeating that over and over, but all it is is your opinion of what other people think. Somehow, you have since with that load of crap.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              OT -- Seriously, what is it with his SBC obsession?
              Maybe a Southern Baptist Sunday school teacher slapped his hand when he tried to grab a cookie?


              True story. When I was a kid, I wanted Otto, my neighbor, to go to Vacation Bible School with me. He was Lutheran, so his mother said he could go with me if I went with him to the Lutheran VBS.
              When we went to his VBS, we were in the basement of the church working on our craft projects, and I needed the Elmer's glue. I asked politely several times, but it was noisy and nobody heard me.
              (I know this is hard to believe, but as a kid, I was very introverted and shy)
              I finally stood up and reached over for the glue, and the Lutheran teacher instantly smacked the back of my little hand with a ruler, bitterly chiding me "When we want things we ASK for them!"
              It put a really bad taste in my mouth for Lutherans.

              So much so, that I dated one, on our first date I told her about Jesus, she accepted Christ as her Savior and I married her. That's how I got even.

              I think maybe Tass hasn't quite found out how to resolve his issues.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Indeed, most people who aren't anti-abortion-extremists ...
                You're so cute, but at least your argument, such as it is, isn't built on dead preachers or anti-Southern Baptist hatred.

                And, something for you to think about, we're not quite at the place where a mind can exist without the body.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  If the science of biology actually lent itself to anti-abortion viewpoints, wouldn't you expect the strongest anti-abortion advocates to be biologists?
                  They'd have to compete with former abortionists.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    And, something for you to think about, we're not quite at the place where a mind can exist without the body.
                    That's not relevant.

                    Out of curiosity... what would you say is the strongest reason (to you personally) you have for being against abortion? What is it that really motivates you personally the most about the issue?
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      at least your argument, such as it is, isn't built on dead preachers or anti-Southern Baptist hatred.


                      This is a (typical) CP misrepresentation. My argument is based upon the fact that until 50 years ago your church, now virulently anti-abortion, was largely indifferent to it.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        until 50 years ago your church, now virulently anti-abortion, was largely indifferent to it.
                        Having grown up myself in a church where abortion wasn't an issue, it still baffles me as to why evangelicals in the US are so focused on abortion. It's not as if it's even in the bible at all. Whereas at least on the topic of homosexuality they've got a tiny handful of biblical references that are often taken as referring to the subject. Their religious fanaticism for a completely non-biblical topic is really bizarre.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Having grown up myself in a church where abortion wasn't an issue, it still baffles me as to why evangelicals in the US are so focused on abortion. It's not as if it's even in the bible at all. Whereas at least on the topic of homosexuality they've got a tiny handful of biblical references that are often taken as referring to the subject. Their religious fanaticism for a completely non-biblical topic is really bizarre.
                          I totally agree. Especially as, according to Jewish law, human life begins at birth, not conception and this was the position of Christianity for much of its history.

                          You may find this link of interest:

                          https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...origins-107133

                          “The Real Origins of the Religious Right: They’ll tell you it was abortion. Sorry, the historical record’s clear: It was segregation".

                          (BTW: The last time I tried to private-message you, your inbox was full.)
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            I totally agree. Especially as, according to Jewish law, human life begins at birth, not conception and this was the position of Christianity for much of its history.

                            You may find this link of interest:

                            https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...origins-107133

                            “The Real Origins of the Religious Right: They’ll tell you it was abortion. Sorry, the historical record’s clear: It was segregation".

                            (BTW: The last time I tried to private-message you, your inbox was full.)
                            Interesting article. This part is quite telling:

                            But the abortion myth quickly collapses under historical scrutiny. In fact, it wasn’t until 1979—a full six years after Roe—that evangelical leaders, at the behest of conservative activist Paul Weyrich, seized on abortion not for moral reasons, but as a rallying-cry to deny President Jimmy Carter a second term. Why? Because the anti-abortion crusade was more palatable than the religious right’s real motive: protecting segregated schools. So much for the new abolitionism. https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...origins-107133
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post


                              This is a (typical) CP misrepresentation.
                              In order for something to be "typical", darlin', it needs to happen more frequently than not. I'll give you five Pinocchios on that one.

                              YOUR frequent misrepresentation, however, is out there for everybody to see, Tass. And, sheesh, talk about misrepresentation -- you are the QUEEN of Misrepresentation!

                              My argument is based upon the fact that until 50 years ago your church, now virulently anti-abortion, was largely indifferent to it.
                              And you use the personal opinion of a dead guy, all the while promoting him to "President of the Southern Baptist Convention at the time of the ruling" (which is false), and making it sound like "President of the Southern Baptist Convention" is some kind of incredibly powerful position. It's funny, because when we elected my friend. Fred Luter (the first African-American to serve in that position) the liberals charged "tokenism".

                              You, sir, are Misrepresentation Personified.

                              "virulently anti-abortion".
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                                Interesting article. This part is quite telling:
                                Just another biased hit piece, trying to broad bush all the religious right: https://thefederalist.com/2014/06/05...cal-hit-piece/
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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