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Why I Voted For Trump...

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    You still haven't, because I didn't call the fetus an unborn baby.
    Actually, you didn't even call it a fetus - you referred to it as "fetal growth" as shown in your actual quote:
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    A fetal growth, part of a womans body, that has the possibility of becoming a human person.

    "Unborn baby" was my terminology, Jim, and I'll own that - because we're talking about the very same thing, just that you refuse to recognize it for what it is - an unborn baby in the early stages of development.

    Would you call a fertilized egg a baby?
    I would certainly call it a human being, and I would never refer to it as a "part". That was the main objection, Jim. It is a human life with its very own unique DNA, separate and apart from its mother.

    Are you sticking with your claim that the unborn baby (which you improperly refer to as "a fetal growth") is "part" of a woman's body?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Actually, you didn't even call it a fetus - you referred to it as "fetal growth" as shown in your actual quote:

      "Unborn baby" was my terminology, Jim, and I'll own that - because we're talking about the very same thing, just that you refuse to recognize it for what it is - an unborn baby in the early stages of development.



      I would certainly call it a human being, and I would never refer to it as a "part". That was the main objection, Jim. It is a human life with its very own unique DNA, separate and apart from its mother.

      Are you sticking with your claim that the unborn baby (which you improperly refer to as "a fetal growth") is "part" of a woman's body?
      Well, if you go so far as to define a ferilized egg a human being then there is no point in debating the matter you any further.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Well, if you go so far as to define a ferilized egg a human being then there is no point in debating the matter you any further.
        But I bet it doesn't stop you.

        A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.
        Keith L. Moore - The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003)


        So what type of being is it, Jim? It is certainly a living being with its own unique DNA, and it's not bovine or porcine or equine...
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          I actually hadn't run into anybody claiming that the unborn baby was simply "part" of the woman's body.
          Really? There were lots before the SBC changed its stance from 'pro-choice' to 'pro-life 50 years ago, e.g. pastor WA Criswell :“I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Really? There were lots before the SBC changed its stance from 'pro-choice' to 'pro-life 50 years ago, e.g. pastor WA Criswell :“I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”
            Well a number of things have happened since then....

            A) Criswell became very much pro-life shortly after RvW because of the reality that it advanced "abortion on demand"
            2) the SCIENCE of biology
            C) Tassman continues his nonsense ant-Christian / anti-Southern Baptist rants.
            IV) Even the "Roe" in Roe v Wade became pro-life

            Ya gotta stop living in the past, Tass. Come to the 21st century.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Tass, I find it quite interesting that your best defense of abortion involves

              A) Constantly and incessantly quoting a dead preacher's personal opinion, which he subsequently changed
              2) Totally ignoring the SCIENCE of biology

              Surely, you can do better.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • If the so called pro lifers actually cared, they would accept contraception. I doubt they even understand the difference between conception and pregnancy. Apparently they believe that a fertilized egg is a human being, and yet 50 to 80 percent of fertilized eggs never even make the 12 day journey to implant itself in the uterus where pregnancy begins. I wonder who they blame for killing all those unborn human beings.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  If the so called pro lifers actually cared, they would accept contraception.
                  Why do you have to do that, Jim? This "so called" business?

                  This is one of those echo-chamber beliefs that won’t survive a reality test. (that's an actual quote from the cited article, not just be being snarky)

                  I doubt they even understand the difference between conception and pregnancy. Apparently they believe that a fertilized egg is a human being,
                  Is this, perhaps, a way of attacking me behind my back while trying to appear civil? (since I'm probably the one you're mocking)

                  From WebMD.... (I'll underline some pertinent parts)

                  The Egg Travels to the Fallopian Tube

                  After the egg is released, it moves into the fallopian tube. It stays there for about 24 hours, waiting for a single sperm to fertilize it. All this happens, on average, about 2 weeks after your last period.

                  If the Egg Isn't Fertilized

                  If no sperm is around to fertilize the egg, it moves through the uterus and disintegrates. Your hormone levels go back to normal. Your body sheds the thick lining of the uterus, and your period starts.

                  Fertilization

                  If one sperm does make its way into the fallopian tube and burrows into the egg, it fertilizes the egg. The egg changes so that no other sperm can get in.

                  At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and sex are set. If the sperm has a Y chromosome, your baby will be a boy. If it has an X chromosome, the baby will be a girl.

                  Implantation: Moving to the Uterus

                  The fertilized egg stays in the fallopian tube for about 3 to 4 days. But within 24 hours of being fertilized, it starts dividing fast into many cells. It keeps dividing as it moves slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Its next job is to attach to the lining of uterus. This is called implantation.

                  Some women notice spotting (or slight bleeding) for 1 or 2 days around the time of implantation. The lining of the uterus gets thicker and the cervix is sealed by a plug of mucus. It will stay in place until the baby is ready to be born.

                  Within 3 weeks, the cells begin to grow as clumps, and the baby's first nerve cells have already formed.

                  Pregnancy Hormones


                  A pregnancy hormone known as hCG is in your blood from the time of implantation. This is the hormone detected in a pregnancy test. Some home pregnancy tests can detect hCG as soon as 7 days after ovulation.


                  Trust the science, Jim - Biology.

                  and yet 50 to 80 percent of fertilized eggs never even make the 12 day journey to implant itself
                  First, I'd like to see your cite for the 80% figure, cause I'm seeing closer to 50%.

                  And, just out of curiosity, where do you get 12 days? From fertilization to implantation is 8-9 days, or, according to the University of California San Francisco Health website, 5-6 days:

                  Implantation

                  Once the embryo reaches the blastocyst stage, approximately five to six days after fertilization, it hatches out of its zona pellucida and begins the process of implantation in the uterus.


                  in the uterus where pregnancy begins.
                  Citation, please, cause I'm finding considerable difference of opinion on that from medical websites, not just pro-life ones.

                  I wonder who they blame for killing all those unborn human beings.
                  Please demonstrate where any pro-lifer is against natural death, Jim (besides wishing it didn't happen so young). When somebody dies of natural causes, there's no "blame" necessary.

                  And, in closing can I please ask that, since we're discussing the SCIENCE of biology rather than your opinion or my opinion, could you please cite your source material? I'm actually interested in "the opposition" on the science.

                  I spend a lot of time around pregnant people, OB/GYNs, prenatal experts (my own daughter was a Labor & Delivery Nurse for a time) - but I freely admit most of these people are pro-life, and may be biased in their statement of facts.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • My apologies, I think I failed to cite the WebMD article:

                    Pregnancy and Conception

                    And, if I could ask a favor, Jim, let's please not cite Planned Parenthood as a source, since they have been rather misleading in the past, and I don't trust their numbers? In return, I'm trying to find sources other than pro-life ones.

                    Thanks
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Tass, I find it quite interesting that your best defense of abortion
                      Abortion doesn’t require a defense. It is those who seek to deny women their rights that need to defend their position. R v W took this into account by stipulating that the choice to end a pregnancy in the first trimester was solely up to the woman. And this is when the vast majority of abortions are performed.

                      Upon what authority does the minority seek to deny women’s rights?

                      involves A) Constantly and incessantly quoting a dead preacher's personal opinion,
                      There are numerous accounts re the veritable indifference at the time of R v W among the very body which today is the most vociferous concerning abortion.

                      https://billmoyers.com/2014/07/17/wh...re-pro-choice/

                      2) Totally ignoring the SCIENCE of biology
                      For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being. And the “SCIENCE of biology” tells us that the very beginnings of a fetus’s higher brain structure only start to appear between weeks 12 and 16.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Abortion doesn’t require a defense.
                        Yet you're stuck citing the words of a dead preacher and ignoring sound science.

                        Like I said, you can do better, Tass.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being.
                          As you so often do, you begin with your opinion, or the opinions of others, or your own definition, then you attempt to warp science to fit that false premise.

                          And the “SCIENCE of biology” tells us that the very beginnings of a fetus’s higher brain structure only start to appear between weeks 12 and 16.
                          The SCIENCE of biology clearly states that "At the instant of fertilization, your baby's genes and sex are set. If the sperm has a Y chromosome, your baby will be a boy. If it has an X chromosome, the baby will be a girl." That, Tass, is beyond dispute.

                          At that moment, a brand new life exists that never existed before, complete with its very own unique DNA. That, Tass, is without dispute. So what species is this life? Is it bovine, or porcine or equine, or vulcan, or extraterrestrial? It is human life.

                          What you have to do to defend abortion is:

                          A) Hide behind a court decision that even many pro-choice liberals agree was horrible legal reasoning, inventing a "right" that never existed existed in the constitution
                          2) Hide behind the fact that biology clearly shows that a brand new life is created at conception, and substitute the phrase "person" for "human life".
                          C) Invent your own definition of what a "human being" is to validate the "right" of one human to hire somebody to destroy the life of another human (human life).

                          It is indisputably human, as it has human DNA.

                          The offspring of two members of a species is always the same type of creature as the parents. No two dogs will ever conceive and give birth to a cat; no fish egg will ever produce a snake. According to all the laws of nature, the preborn baby is human.

                          A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.

                          Keith L. Moore - The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (7th edition, Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003)
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                            For most people it is a functioning brain that defines a human being. And the “SCIENCE of biology” tells us that the very beginnings of a fetus’s higher brain structure only start to appear between weeks 12 and 16.
                            Wrong. Electroencephalograms have been detecting brain waves as early as 6 to 6½ weeks since back in the mid-1950s and this has been confirmed multiple times since then. As Parents Magazine succinctly puts it in their series about the development of the baby at week 6 "brain waves can now be recorded."

                            Even if you don't accept that life begins at conception, the fact that there is both a heartbeat (between 5½ and 7 weeks) and brain activity (6 to 6½ weeks) indicates that at 12 to 16 weeks they are snuffing out a life

                            Time for you to move the goalposts again.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              ...

                              This is one of those echo-chamber beliefs that won’t survive a reality test. (that's an actual quote from the cited article, not just be being snarky)
                              If my math is correct, and based on the various "at most" qualifiers in the article, considerably less (or is it "fewer"?) than 25% of those who oppose abortion also oppose contraception.

                              OTOH, some (many?) do oppose contraceptives that are also abortifacients, so there's that.

                              WRT to the "opposed to access" argument in the article, even that is misleading. Those of us who are ok with non-abortifacient contraceptives usually still oppose forcing those who DO oppose all contraceptives to supply or fund them, but that is about as far as we'd go in limiting "access."
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Yet you're stuck citing the words of a dead preacher and ignoring sound science.

                                Like I said, you can do better, Tass.
                                OT -- Seriously, what is it with his SBC obsession?
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                                Comment

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