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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    No, actually, if you look at the data, it is not only a talking point, as if there is something wrong with talking points per se, but the talking point, happens to be true.

    http://www.guttmacher.org/sites/defa...s/gr040101.pdf

    As you can see, abortion is completely illegal in Latin America and yet abortion rates are estimated to be twice that of the U.S. and the mortality rate ranges from 6 to 20 times greater than that in the U.S.
    Your obsolete information is directly contradicted by newer data. For instance as I pointed out in post #754:
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    So let's turn to Chile. Why Chile you ask? While most countries in recent years have lessened legal restrictions on abortion, in contrast Chile took the opposite approach. In that country prior to 1989 abortion was largely legal, but in 1989, Chile banned all "therapeutic" abortions, thus providing us with an actual example of what can be expected when abortion is made illegal.

    A groundbreaking study of abortion in Chile published in 2012 is the first in-depth analysis of a large time series, year by year, of maternal deaths and their determinants and was led by Dr. Elard Koch[3]. The researchers found that outlawing abortion is not associated with maternal mortality and moreover it not only saved children but advanced women's health. That's right. Restrictive abortion laws were good for women’s health. At a time when access to legal abortion is often deemed as absolutely necessary for women’s health, this shatters that assumption.

    Koch and his colleagues discovered that similar to restrictions on alcohol or tobacco, restrictive abortion laws acted to dissuade. Further, they concluded that even with these restrictions, Chile has one of the lowest abortion-related maternal mortality rates in the world.

    As Koch explained in an interview:

    Source: A ground-breaking abortion study from Chile


    These data suggest that over time, restrictive laws may have a restraining effect on the practice of abortion and promote its decrease. In fact, Chile exhibits today one of the lowest abortion-related maternal deaths in the world, with a 92.3% decrease since 1989 and a 99.1% accumulated decrease over 50 years.

    Second, from the perspective of human life, especially if a developing country is looking to simultaneously protect the life of the mother and the unborn child, a plausible hypothesis after the Chilean study is that abortion restriction may be effective when is combined with adequately-implemented public policies to increase educational levels of women and to improve access to maternal health facilities. A restrictive law may discourage practice, which is suggested by the decrease of hospitalizations due to clandestine abortions estimated in Chile.



    Source

    © Copyright Original Source




    So while pro-abortion proponents repeatedly insist that abortion regulations or bans would result in a back-alley abortion surge and giving rise to an increase in deaths and serious injuries of women, the facts simply put indicate that this is not the case.

    Finally, one should bear in mind that if Roe were to be overturned it is highly doubtful that this would suddenly lead to abortions being outlawed nationwide. It would almost certainly throw it back to the states to decide on a state-by-state basis. It is inconceivable that states like California or New York would choose to make them illegal. The same could be said about other "blue" states (including those that voted for Trump in 2016) and likely for a number of "red" ones as well.

    And even in states that do opt to make them illegal, it would likely be like how it was in Ireland before they legalized abortion two months ago, where those wanting one simply took a day trip over to Great Britain in order to get one. The same with Poland which still has tight restrictions on abortion. As the Guardian noted matter-of-factly, "Polish women seeking abortions typically go to Germany or other neighbouring countries or order abortion pills online."










    3. An epidemiologist with the Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Chile in Santiago as well as the Institute of Molecular Epidemiology (MELISA) and Center of Embryonic Medicine and Maternal Health, Faculty of Medicine, Universidad Católica de la Santísima Concepción, Concepción, Chile

    As an aside do you understand that the reason that abortions might be more plentiful in South America because birth control is usually unavailable or prohibitively expensive?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Your obsolete information is directly contradicted by newer data. For instance as I pointed out in post #754:

      As an aside do you understand that the reason that abortions might be more plentiful in South America because birth control is usually unavailable or prohibitively expensive?
      Do you even read what you post? The above is basically about maternal mortality rates, not the rate of abortions, other than opining that "restrictive laws may have a restraining effect" on the practice of abortion.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Did you actually read that PDF, Jim?
        Yes.
        First of all, it's from 20 years ago, and is simply a pleading that abortion CAN be legal, safe and rare.
        Doesn't matter, the situation doesn't change, the issue was the same 20 years ago as it is now.
        It doesn't change the fact that Planned Parenthood has no plans whatsoever to make abortion more rare -- they CELEBRATE numbers of abortions, as Rogue pointed out.
        Now that's just ridiculous. It's called Planned Parenthood for a reason, CP. It's not only about abortion, it's about preventing unwanted pregnancies as well as other womens and family health issues.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          That's quite an admission - so ending that pregnancy would be terminating a human life? I concur!
          You are not engaging with the argument, as you well know. What’s at issue is when the embryo/fetus is entitled to the full protection on the law as an individual person. Roe v Wade considered this to be when the fetus becomes a viable individual and built its ruling around this concept. 71% of Americans currently agree with this ruling.

          While I'm sure this is apparently another glaring error on your part, you are implying that any abortion after week 13 is killing a "viable individual".
          I am “implying” the argument made in R v W whereby fetal viability was the guide. Hence, the court divided pregnancy into three trimesters, and declared that the choice to end a pregnancy in the first trimester was solely up to the woman. In the second trimester, the government could regulate abortion, although not ban it, in order to protect the mother’s health. In the third trimester, the state could prohibit abortion to protect a fetus that could survive on its own outside the womb, except when a woman’s health was in danger.

          This actually reflects the attitude common throughout most of Judeo/Christian history, namely that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became a complete individual person. This was the position of your denomination until 50 years ago...at the time of the Roe decision the overwhelming response was silence, even approval.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          You can't even keep your facts straight - you had clearly stated that he was President of the SBC at the time of the RvW decision. Wrong. You repeatedly demonstrate your complete and total ignorance of all things Southern Baptist.
          It was a quote, actually, as linked. But it was what the two-term elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention, pastor Criswell, actually said that was significant and which you are avoiding with your calculated nit-picking. I suggest you go back and read what he said as provided at least twice previously.
          Last edited by Tassman; 10-24-2019, 12:45 AM.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            It's called Planned Parenthood for a reason, CP.
            Of course, because "Abortions R Us" would have been too provocative.

            They are the nation's largest abortion provider.

            Glenn Grothman says Planned Parenthood is leading abortion provider

            Our rating

            Grothman told constituents that "Planned Parenthood is the biggest abortion provider in the country."

            The agency’s national network of clinics stands apart from other providers as the undisputed leader when it comes to providing abortion services.

            This is one of those truisms that is basically, well, True.

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              You are not engaging with the argument, as you well know.
              Don't give me this "as you well know" crap -- I'm simply not playing your goofy game.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                It was a quote, actually, as linked.
                So stop using sources that "quote" incorrect information. Stop being so intellectually lazy.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The pro-abortion crowd only cares about keeping abortion legal and if anything wants to increase abortions:
                  Gotta love your endless cherry-picked spin...the longer it is the truer it must be. Is that your rationale?

                  The vast majority of the “pro-abortion crowd” is only concerned with preserving a woman’s “choice” regarding abortion, which is guaranteed by Roe v Wade as a constitutional right.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    This was the position of your denomination until 50 years ago...at the time of the Roe decision the overwhelming response was silence, even approval.
                    And this is yet another example of your profound ignorance of all things Southern baptist. Our denomination was on a very liberal slide until the late 70's / early 80's, when there was a significant conservative resurgence (in which I played a part ). You're liable to find a number of statements from those days which do not represent our convention today. Most of the liberals bailed, and formed their own convention.

                    In addition, Criswell became very much pro-life, as did the "Roe" in Roe v Wade.

                    As the 1970s progressed, Land, Lewis and thousands of individual Southern Baptists -- including the organization Southern Baptists for Life -- argued for protecting unborn life in all cases except to save the physical life of the mother. Among non-Southern Baptists, apologist Francis Schaeffer and future U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop argued that abortion was immoral and gained increased support for the pro-life cause.

                    Southern Baptists as prominent as W.A. Criswell, pastor of First Baptist Church in Dallas, began to shift from a qualified pro-choice view to fully embrace the pro-life position.

                    Following the Roe v. Wade decision, news sources reported that Criswell said, "I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed."

                    But, according to Land, Criswell "listened intently" to pro-life arguments during the ensuing years, including arguments Land made while teaching at Criswell College beginning in 1975. When the "Criswell Study Bible" was published in 1979, Criswell included "overtly pro-life" study notes, Land said.

                    Mirroring Criswell's change of mind were similar changes in the broader evangelical world. Theologians Carl Henry and Norman Geisler, for example, both became ardently pro-life.

                    "Some of our pastors in those years hadn't really studied what Scripture said about abortion," Jerry Vines, former SBC president and retired pastor of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla., told BP. "But I think the carnage [of increased abortion following Roe v. Wade] drove them back to their Bibles to take a further look at it."

                    Studying a Greek word from the New Testament "really nailed down the abortion issue for me," Vines said.

                    The word "brephos," translated as "baby," is used eight times in the New Testament, Vines said. Six of those occurrences refer to children who have already been born, but two speak of John the Baptist in his mother's womb.

                    "That's pretty convincing evidence that Scripture looks on a baby in its mother's womb as a baby," said Vines, who also noted Jeremiah 1 and Psalm 139 as convincing pro-life passages.
                    source - Baptist Press


                    It was, in fact, the Roe decision that caused many Southern Baptist pastors and leaders to reexamine the abortion issue and become pro-life.

                    It was a quote, actually, as linked.
                    You need better sources.

                    But it was what the two-term elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention, pastor Criswell, actually said that was significant and which you are avoiding with your calculated nit-picking. I suggest you go back and read what he said as provided at least twice previously.
                    "calculated nit-picking"? What a Drama Queen.

                    And, again, you demonstrate your profound ignorance of all things Southern Baptist.

                    The President of the Southern Baptist Convention does not serve as a pope in any sense of the word. And though you seem to think that "two-term elected" is something incredibly special, it's actually pretty standard for a president to serve 2) one year terms. It's pretty much tradition. His main job is to serve as moderator at our annual meetings, but it is the body that decides the future of the SBC, not the president.

                    Criswell was a man who was certainly entitled to his opinion, and shortly after Roe v Wade, and largely BECAUSE of Roe v Wade, he became very much pro-life.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      And this is yet another example of your profound ignorance of all things Southern baptist. Our denomination was on a very liberal slide until the late 70's / early 80's, when there was a significant conservative resurgence (in which I played a part ). You're liable to find a number of statements from those days which do not represent our convention today. Most of the liberals bailed, and formed their own convention.
                      None of this alters the FACT that until 50 years ago at the time of the Roe decision the overwhelming response was silence, even approval by the SBC. Which in turn reflected the attitude common throughout most of Judeo/Christian history. Namely, that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became a complete individual person.

                      https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...origins-107133

                      The rampant moral outrage at abortion among Southern Baptists nowadays is a recent invention.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Do you even read what you post? The above is basically about maternal mortality rates, not the rate of abortions, other than opining that "restrictive laws may have a restraining effect" on the practice of abortion.
                        You brought up mortality rates and since the whole purpose of an abortion is to kill the baby the one we have to look at is the maternal mortality rate. And what we see is that abortion advocates were wrong in their claim that restricting abortion would lead to a surge in deaths for the mothers. In fact the exact opposite took place. After outlawing abortions in Chile they experienced "a 92.3% decrease since 1989 and a 99.1% accumulated decrease over 50 years" which means that the country now has "one of the lowest abortion-related maternal deaths in the world."

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          It isn't a pro-abortion crowd, it's a pro choice crowd, meaning that it is no one elses business what any woman decides to do with her own body. You don't have to agree with her, but you are not her, it's her body, her life, and her business. It's true that the fetus could become a human person at some point during the pregnancy, and that time has been determined by the court. To argue, as many do, that it becomes a human person at conception is ridiculous.
                          Your twisted logic, to cover up what abortion is, the killing of ones child, is truly sickening. Your justification in falling back on legal terms and ignoring what truly is going on, is noted.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            None of this alters the FACT that until 50 years ago at the time of the Roe decision the overwhelming response was silence, even approval by the SBC.
                            It wasn't "overwhelming silence", you dunderhead. It simply wasn't much of an issue when it was thought that abortion might be necessary on rare occasions, then Roe v Wade made ABORTION ON DEMAND a hot topic, and became a major issue.

                            But, do continue your Drama Queen hate rant against Southern Baptists -- we wouldn't recognize you without it.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Of course, because "Abortions R Us" would have been too provocative.

                              They are the nation's largest abortion provider.

                              Glenn Grothman says Planned Parenthood is leading abortion provider

                              Our rating

                              Grothman told constituents that "Planned Parenthood is the biggest abortion provider in the country."

                              The agency’s national network of clinics stands apart from other providers as the undisputed leader when it comes to providing abortion services.

                              This is one of those truisms that is basically, well, True.

                              And that makes a difference, why? They are the largest provider of womens health services, so it only makes sense that they would be the largest abortion provider. That has nothing to do with the issue of whether they make abortions themselves safer and rarer.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                Your twisted logic, to cover up what abortion is, the killing of ones child, is truly sickening. Your justification in falling back on legal terms and ignoring what truly is going on, is noted.
                                The fact that we disagree about what abortion is and what is truly going on, is noted.

                                Comment

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