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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Voluntary prayer doesn't violate the Constitution, seer. That's just the canard you're employing. You can go and pray any where and any time you like. It's legal. Feel better?
    Good then you have no problem with teacher led voluntary prayer. Like we had when I was a kid...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      Good then you have no problem with teacher led voluntary prayer. Like we had when I was a kid...
      Unless, of course, there's a LAW that mandates this teacher led voluntary prayer!
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Good then you have no problem with teacher led voluntary prayer. Like we had when I was a kid...
        Teacher/government institution led prayer, is not voluntary prayer, seer.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Teacher/government institution led prayer, is not voluntary prayer, seer.
          Sure it is, if the students are not required to join in nor if the teachers are required to say it. When I was in school some teachers did others didn't - and no one was required to follow along.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Sure it is, if the students are not required to join in nor if the teachers are required to say it. When I was in school some teachers did others didn't - and no one was required to follow along.
            Well, SCOTUS vehemently disagrees with that kind of nonsense, you lose. You have already admitted that if it were muslim led prayer you would take the position of SCOTUS, so you're just being hypocritical.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Well, SCOTUS vehemently disagrees with that kind of nonsense, you lose.
              Perhaps you should look up the word "vehemently".
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Well, SCOTUS vehemently disagrees with that kind of nonsense, you lose. You have already admitted that if it were muslim led prayer you would take the position of SCOTUS, so you're just being hypocritical.
                Except SCOTUS wasn't actually following the Amendment as written. Hopefully now that we have a new court some of this anti-constitutional BS will get reversed. And I'm not being hypocritical - Islam has nothing to do with the founding and history of that nation.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Except SCOTUS wasn't actually following the Amendment as written. Hopefully now that we have a new court some of this anti-constitutional BS will get reversed. And I'm not being hypocritical - Islam has nothing to do with the founding and history of that nation.
                  Well, I wouldn't get your hopes up if I were you seer.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Except SCOTUS wasn't actually following the Amendment as written.
                    In Everson? I'm not sure I agree. When the government is actually writing prayers for official usage, I would contend that is in fact an establishment of religion. As for the question of "congress shall make no law," as was noted in the opinion, the writing of said prayer was authorized by state law, and therefore this applies. Indeed, the author of that opinion, Hugo Black, was a staunch textualist. Consider this quote of his in a dissent (Griswold v. Connecticut), which sounds like something straight out of a Scalia opinion:

                    "I realize that many good and able men have eloquently spoken and written, sometimes in rhapsodical strains, about the duty of this Court to keep the Constitution in tune with the times. The idea is that the Constitution must be changed from time to time, and that this Court is charged with a duty to make those changes. For myself, I must, with all deference, reject that philosophy. The Constitution makers knew the need for change, and provided for it. Amendments suggested by the people's elected representatives can be submitted to the people or their selected agents for ratification. That method of change was good for our Fathers, and, being somewhat old-fashioned, I must add it is good enough for me."

                    EDIT: Sorry, my goof, that should have been "Engel", not "Everson." Everson was about whether it was constitutional for a state to use tax dollars to pay for transport to and from private religious schools, and it was ruled it was constitutional. Coincidentally, Hugo Black wrote that one too...
                    Last edited by Terraceth; 09-30-2019, 08:10 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                      In Everson? I'm not sure I agree. When the government is actually writing prayers for official usage, I would contend that is in fact an establishment of religion. As for the question of "congress shall make no law," as was noted in the opinion, the writing of said prayer was authorized by state law, and therefore this applies. Indeed, the author of that opinion, Hugo Black, was a staunch textualist. Consider this quote of his in a dissent (Griswold v. Connecticut), which sounds like something straight out of a Scalia opinion:

                      "I realize that many good and able men have eloquently spoken and written, sometimes in rhapsodical strains, about the duty of this Court to keep the Constitution in tune with the times. The idea is that the Constitution must be changed from time to time, and that this Court is charged with a duty to make those changes. For myself, I must, with all deference, reject that philosophy. The Constitution makers knew the need for change, and provided for it. Amendments suggested by the people's elected representatives can be submitted to the people or their selected agents for ratification. That method of change was good for our Fathers, and, being somewhat old-fashioned, I must add it is good enough for me."

                      EDIT: Sorry, my goof, that should have been "Engel", not "Everson." Everson was about whether it was constitutional for a state to use tax dollars to pay for transport to and from private religious schools, and it was ruled it was constitutional. Coincidentally, Hugo Black wrote that one too...
                      I'm not speaking of the government writing a prayer, but of voluntary teacher led prayer, if the teacher so chooses - and not mandatory for the students. That was how it worked in my school district. Sorry Terraceth I don't know of any founder who would have been against that.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        First, when I was in school teacher led prayer was never mandatory. The teacher was not compelled to say a prayer, nor did the students have to join it. Which is fine with me. But to say that voluntary prayer violates the Constitution is just bunk. It is not CONGRESS making a LAW.
                        No. This is NOT “just bunk”. Your argument is specifically against the ruling already cited of the Supreme Court regarding the Establishment Clause in “Engel v. Vitale. The Court, by a vote of 6-1, determined it unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when the prayer is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation".

                        https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause

                        If it comes down to your mere opinion as a theist with a high sense of entitlement vis a vis the Supreme Court, whose role it is to interpret the Constitution when its meaning is challenged, I will side with the latter.
                        Last edited by Tassman; 10-01-2019, 01:04 AM.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Sure it is, if the students are not required to join in nor if the teachers are required to say it.
                          What about a Satanist or Muslim leading voluntary prayers? If only Christians are permitted to lead them, then it’s getting very close to being an established state religion.

                          When I was in school some teachers did others didn't - and no one was required to follow along.
                          Non-Christian children are put under unnecessary psychological pressure if the majority of their peers plus an authority figure like their teacher recite prayers in a formal setting...even if they are deemed voluntary. But I suspect this is the idea, isn’t it?
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            No. This is NOT “just bunk”. Your argument is specifically against the ruling already cited of the Supreme Court regarding the Establishment Clause in “Engel v. Vitale. The Court, by a vote of 6-1, determined it unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when the prayer is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation".

                            https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause

                            If it comes down to your mere opinion as a theist with a high sense of entitlement vis a vis the Supreme Court, whose role it is to interpret the Constitution when its meaning is challenged, I will side with the latter.
                            Sheesh Tass when are you going to get the fact that the court often ignores the Constitution? And I said nothing about an official prayer, or it being required. I said teacher led - if the teacher so chose, or even student led in the classroom. Look, when I went to school, after the Pledge, a teacher may recite the Lord's prayer. Students could join in or not. I had one teacher Mr.P who would read a Psalm. We also had the Ten Commandments posted in the main doorway. No Founding Father would have had a problem with this and it does not, in any way, violate the clause - Congress shall make no LAW. Period...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              "As writ"? Where was this "writ"?
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Nationalist.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Sheesh Tass when are you going to get the fact that the court often ignores the Constitution?
                                When are YOU going to get the fact that the role of the Supreme Court is to interpret the Constitution when its meaning is challenged? That is its purpose. Your personal, agenda-based opinion about its decisions are irrelevant.

                                And I said nothing about an official prayer, or it being required. I said teacher led - if the teacher so chose, or even student led in the classroom.
                                Teachers are paid for by the state and hence state officials. If they recite prayers or authorize students to do so in an official school setting, they are violating the Supreme Court ruling already cited. Namely that it is unconstitutional even when the prayer is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation.

                                Look, when I went to school, after the Pledge, a teacher may recite the Lord's prayer. Students could join in or not. I had one teacher Mr.P who would read a Psalm. We also had the Ten Commandments posted in the main doorway. No Founding Father would have had a problem with this and it does not, in any way, violate the clause - Congress shall make no LAW. Period..
                                What about a Satanist or Muslim teacher in a state-school leading voluntary prayer? If only Christians are permitted to lead them, then Christianity is getting very close to being an established state religion forbidden by the Constitution.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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