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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    No it doesn't - it was about to instituting a federal state church when one had to worship. The Founders themselves did use tax monies to support the Christian religion, no one would have had a problem with school prayer or a display of religious symbols in government buildings. And I defy you Tass to show otherwise.
    The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise on numerous occasions based upon 'Separation of Church and State'. E.g. "In 1962, the Supreme Court addressed the issue of officially sponsored prayer or religious recitations in public schools. In Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court, by a vote of 6-1, determined it unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when the prayer is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation".

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      What are you talking about Tass, that doesn't change the fact that Adam clearly said that our independence was grounded in the principles of Christianity.
      I guess this is why John Adams was sworn in using a 'book of Law', instead of the bible, so as to maintain the separation of church and state. This is the same John Adams who signed into law the Treaty of Tripoli which stated that founding fathers did not see the United States as a Christian nation, a common but erroneous claim made by evangelicals, and Dominionists today.
      Last edited by Tassman; 09-30-2019, 12:06 AM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        I guess this is why John Adams was sworn in using a 'book of Law', instead of the bible, so as to maintain the separation of church and state. This is the same John Adams who signed into law the Treaty of Tripoli which stated that founding fathers did not see the United States as a Christian nation, a common but erroneous claim made by evangelicals, and Dominionists today.
        I could be wrong, but I think that was John Quincy Adams, Tass. But the apple probably didn't fall far from the tree. I don't think there is much evidence as to what they used to take the oath early on. The Bible obviously wasn't a requirement.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          I could be wrong, but I think that was John Quincy Adams, Tass. But the apple probably didn't fall far from the tree. I don't think there is much evidence as to what they used to take the oath early on. The Bible obviously wasn't a requirement.
          Yes of course, my mistake. But as you say if the sixth president of the United States, John Quincy Adams, wasn't required to swear the oath of office on a bible then the early USA was not the big Christian deal that Evangelicals try to make it out to be.
          Last edited by Tassman; 09-30-2019, 02:14 AM.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise on numerous occasions based upon 'Separation of Church and State'. E.g. "In 1962, the Supreme Court addressed the issue of officially sponsored prayer or religious recitations in public schools. In Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court, by a vote of 6-1, determined it unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when the prayer is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation".

            https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause
            First, when I was in school teacher led prayer was never mandatory. The teacher was not compelled to say a prayer, nor did the students have to join it. Which is fine with me. But to say that voluntary prayer violates the Constitution is just bunk. It is not CONGRESS making a LAW.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              I guess this is why John Adams was sworn in using a 'book of Law', instead of the bible, so as to maintain the separation of church and state. This is the same John Adams who signed into law the Treaty of Tripoli which stated that founding fathers did not see the United States as a Christian nation, a common but erroneous claim made by evangelicals, and Dominionists today.
              Adam's did not write the Treaty of Tripoli, but he went along with it. We know his true views in his letter to Jefferson.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Congress didn't make a law, seer, They didn't have to, it's already (the Establishment Clause) in the Constitution. Prayer in public schools would be respecting the establishment of a religion. And levying taxes in support of any particular religious Institution would be respecting the establishment of religion. Do you think you should have to pay taxes to support a religious institution that you don't believe in? No, I didn't think so. Neither would that agree with the Constitution.
                Nonsense Jim, you just can't keep making things up. Voluntary teacher led prayer is in no way Congress make a law. And remember the Founders did in fact use tax monies to support the Christian religion. Both on the federal and state level.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Correct
                  Remember that!

                  So what if in the beginning they were, that doesn't change the ideal as set down in the Constitution. When the country became more diverse so did the employ of chaplains of all religious beliefs in accord with the ideal as writ in the Constitution.
                  "As writ"? Where was this "writ"?

                  And btw, they are employed/paid as chaplains, not as preachers, and Conress gets to choose their chaplains.
                  What an absolutely idiotic notion -- nobody claimed they were "preachers", and that doesn't change the fact that Congress employs clergymen.

                  Jimmy, honey, you're flailing miserably here, yapping about stuff you have no clue what you're saying.

                  Just stop.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    I could be wrong, but I think that was John Quincy Adams, Tass. But the apple probably didn't fall far from the tree. I don't think there is much evidence as to what they used to take the oath early on. The Bible obviously wasn't a requirement.
                    No one said it was a requirement... But it does reflect our Christian history.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Originally they were not preachers, they were clerics.
                      What an idiotic statement. All you're doing is exposing the depth of your ignorance.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Nonsense Jim, you just can't keep making things up.
                        Yes he can! At this point, that's all he's got!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          No one said it was a requirement... But it does reflect our Christian history.
                          So what, seer. Yeah, the Founding Fathers, many of them were christians, many were deists, and who knows what any of them truly believed in their hearts. They were politicians. It's the Constitution that matters, not the assumed religious beliefs of the Founders.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            So what, seer. Yeah, the Founding Fathers, many of them were christians, many were deists, and who knows what any of them truly believed in their hearts. They were politicians. It's the Constitution that matters, not the assumed religious beliefs of the Founders.
                            The Constitution doesn't live in a vacuum, Jim. Context is important.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              First, when I was in school teacher led prayer was never mandatory. The teacher was not compelled to say a prayer, nor did the students have to join it. Which is fine with me. But to say that voluntary prayer violates the Constitution is just bunk. It is not CONGRESS making a LAW.
                              Voluntary prayer doesn't violate the Constitution, seer. That's just the canard you're employing. You can go and pray any where and any time you like. It's legal. Feel better?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                So what, seer. Yeah, the Founding Fathers, many of them were christians, many were deists, and who knows what any of them truly believed in their hearts. They were politicians. It's the Constitution that matters, not the assumed religious beliefs of the Founders.
                                No Jim, MANY were not Deist - the majority were Christian, by far. The point is none of them would have had a problem with school prayer. They did not want a national Church.


                                The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a very specific group of people, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. Yes, there were other important players, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shape of our nation and who were not in attendance, but the 55 Fathers make up the core.

                                The denominational affiliation of these men is a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin, this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.

                                This is a very revealing tally. It means that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, most were Calvinists (the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity.

                                (John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.)


                                https://www.str.org/quickthoughts/wh...s#.XZIR5yhKiM8
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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