Why I Voted For Trump...

[Charles]

Remember, Tassman is Australian and only knows about US government from halfway around the world.

Ad hominem.

[Bill the Cat]

Ad hominem.

[seer]

No - I know that when you write "God", you mean the Xtian one. But when Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson and co write "Creator" ...?

What did the majority of the Founders think?

Continental Congress’ November 1, 1777 national Thanksgiving Day Proclamation

It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart Thursday, the 18th day of December next, for solemn thanksgiving and praise; that with one heart and one voice the good people may express the grateful feelings of their hearts, and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor; and that together with their sincere acknowledgments and offerings, they may join the penitent confession of their manifold sins, whereby they had forfeited every favor, and their humble and earnest supplication that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance; that it may please him graciously to afford his blessings on the governments of these states respectively, and prosper the public council of the whole; to inspire our commanders both by land and sea, and all under them, with that wisdom and fortitude which may render them fit instruments, under the providence of Almighty God...

The Continental Congress populated by the very men in question - which God did they think it was?

and

The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a very specific group of people, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. Yes, there were other important players, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shape of our nation and who were not in attendance, but the 55 Fathers make up the core.

The denominational affiliation of these men is a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin, this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.

This is a very revealing tally. It means that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, most were Calvinists (the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity.


(John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.)


https://www.str.org/quickthoughts/wh...s#.XYo3-ChKiM9

[Cow Poke]

No - I know that when you write "God", you mean the Xtian one.

Well, you "know" something that is flat out false. I mean the Judeo-Christian one.

But when Ben Franklin, Tom Jefferson and co write "Creator" ...?

Which, at the time, was clearly understood to be the Judeo-Christian one.

[seer]

Well, you "know" something that is flat out false. I mean the Judeo-Christian one.



Which, at the time, was clearly understood to be the Judeo-Christian one.

Right even Jefferson was called a Christian Deist - whatever that means.

[JimL]

The Declaration of Independence was not a legal document, outside of whatever force you ascribe to its declaration of secession itself. Phrases like "all men are created equal", while nice sentiments, have no legal force whatsoever. The Declaration of Independence's primary purpose was, aside from declaring independence, to try to convince the other colonists that doing so was a good idea. It was never meant to "apply" to laws of the United States. Trying to use it as any kind of legal document is foolhardy.

For that matter, the issue of whether slaves counted as humans was irrelevant to the question of the constitutionality of slavery. In fact, to this day, slavery is constitutional under certain circumstances. Don't believe me? Read the Thirteenth Amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

I don't believe I ever argued that slavery was unconstitutional, I argued that the moral against slavery, the very notion that all men are created equal was an ideal held by the Founders just as was the "separation of church and state" an ideal held by the Founders, even though neither was fully practiced at the time.

[JimL]

Right and Jefferson was one man and his separation of church and state has no force in law. And your link is right Connecticut is my state, and we had a Church tax, to support the state Church. State supported churches lasted into the 1830s. They simply fell by the way side, not because they violated the Establishment Clause.

Jefferson was one, and Madison, the main architect of the Constitution was another, and the courts take the writings of many of the founders into consideration when determining the meaning of the "Establishment Clause". They are separate, the Founders meant for there to be a wall between them, and they should be separate, as wise men like themselves understood, religious themselves though they were.

[Tassman]

Right by leftists courts who ignore the actual wording of the Constitution. CONGRESS shall make no LAW. And tell me Tass, what exactly did Jefferson mean?

The Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means. That’s what the Supreme Court does when the Constitution’s meaning is in dispute.

[seer]

The Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means. That’s what the Supreme Court does when the Constitution’s meaning is in dispute.

That is just stupid Tass, if the Supreme Court said we really didn't have the freedom of the press would that make it true? And Tass there is no dispute - the text is PERFECTLY clear - even you can understand it - CONGRESS shall make NO LAW. And again - tell me what exactly did Jefferson mean? You seem to know.

[seer]

Jefferson was one, and Madison, the main architect of the Constitution was another, and the courts take the writings of many of the founders into consideration when determining the meaning of the "Establishment Clause". They are separate, the Founders meant for there to be a wall between them, and they should be separate, as wise men like themselves understood, religious themselves though they were.

That is just false Jim, the Founders put into law exactly what they wanted in law. Congress shall make no law - which has nothing to do with a school district for instance having a teacher led voluntary prayer.

[Roy]

Well, you "know" something that is flat out false. I mean the Judeo-Christian one.

This is definitely a side-track, but ... how is the Judeo-Christian God not the same as the Christian God?

[seer]

This is definitely a side-track, but ... how is the Judeo-Christian God not the same as the Christian God?

So you agree that the majority of the Founders would have seen God as the Christian God?

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post672163

[Roy]

So you agree that the majority of the Founders would have seen God as the Christian God?

Every time I've seen you start a post with "So you agree..." you've followed it with a non sequitur. That's one of the reasons I've given up on having an honest discussion with you.

[seer]

Every time I've seen you start a post with "So you agree..." you've followed it with a non sequitur. That's one of the reasons I've given up on having an honest discussion with you.

Really Roy, it is a simple question. The fact is the majority of the Founders would have seen this as the Christian God. Why not just admit it?

[Roy]

Really Roy, it is a simple question. The fact is the majority of the Founders would have seen this as the Christian God. Why not just admit it?

Because I think it's completely irrelevant to anything I've said, am not interested in a discussion with you, don't know whether it's true, don't believe anything you say, don't see any point looking it something I don't care about, and have never denied it anyway.

[seer mode]
So you agree that the establishment clause of the first amendment applies to state and local governments?
[/seer mode]