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Why I Voted For Trump...

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    That the founders of this country were mostly christian, or that they were the authors of the constitution, doesn't make this a christian country any more than if they were jews or muslims would make it a jewish or muslim country. The constitution is not a religious document.
    The concept of equal rights, the principles in the Declaration and Constitution, were formed in a decidedly Christian culture. Heavily influenced by Christian thinkers like John Locke, William Blackstone, Samuel Rutherford, Alfred the Great (father of English common law), etc... The very freedoms and privileges you enjoy were born in Christendom. You can thank us later.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      The concept of equal rights, the principles in the Declaration and Constitution, were formed in a decidedly Christian culture. Heavily influenced by Christian thinkers like John Locke, William Blackstone, Samuel Rutherford, Alfred the Great (father of English common law), etc... The very freedoms and privileges you enjoy were born in Christendom. You can thank us later.
      Thomas Paine was not a christian, Jefferson was not a christian, Alexander Hamilton was not a christian, some were christians but regardless most, unlike yourself apparently, were free thinkers, and whether they were christians or not is irrellevant. It's not a theocracy seer, and they certainly never intended iot to be.
      Last edited by JimL; 09-19-2019, 10:33 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Because if you're not going to appoint judges who make rulings based on their political and religious views rather than on the facts and merits of the cases before them, then what's the point of appointing judges with particular political/religious views? If judges are going to decide cases based purely on facts and law, then you'd expect conservative and liberal judges to reach the same conclusions. The only reason to specifically appoint conservative judges is so that they will decide cases based on their conservatism, not on legal principles.
        Justices really aren't "conservative" or "liberal." Those are somewhat misleading terms, but people use them for convenience. It is more accurate to refer them to judges that reach decisions that are generally favorable to conservative political interests or judges that reach decisions that are generally favorable to liberal political interests. But the actual reaching of those decisions is not based on those political factors. For example, the constitutional question of abortion rests not on the liberal or conservative moral views of it, but the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. That is why the strongly pro-choice John Hart Ely was able to write "The Wages of Crying Wolf", an article harshly criticizing Roe v. Wade as one of the worst decisions of the last several decades.

        Oh, and there have been examples of judges, even SCOTUS ones, producing verdicts based on their religion - such as Scalia and Rehnquist's opinion in Edwards v Aguillard that a law that mandated teaching young earth creationism didn't have a religious purpose.
        How is this "based on their religion"? Scalia was Catholic, and Rehnquist was ELCA. Neither group is exactly big on young earth creationism, so I doubt either of them held to that belief.

        You can certainly disagree with their argument, which I myself find questionable, but I have a difficult time seeing how their religions caused them to pronounce such a verdict.

        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Right, I don't know any liberal judges that are Originalists - they just happen to be conservatives.
        Hrm... it's interesting, I was going to list a bunch of liberal originalists, but then I realized none of them were judges.

        Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black absolutely qualifies, but he's hardly current--he retired back in the 1970's. Still, it is notable that one of the best-known originalists/textualists on the Supreme Court was a liberal justice. Of course, he almost certainly would have voted against Roe v. Wade had still been on the court when it was decided (Roe v. Wade was decided less than 2 years after his retirement).

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          Then your fellows shouldn't write things like this: "Trump's promise to replace liberal judges with conservative ones was a big issue to me.".

          Originalism makes sense to me, because language and meaning change over time. But there doesn't seem to be any reason why a liberal can't also be an originalist.
          "Judicial conservative" often goes hand-in-hand with "originalist." It generally does not mean "a jurist who seeks to apply conservative social, political, or economic principles to court decisions," but rather "a jurist who generally seeks to make narrowly focused decisions, with any changes being incremental."
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            The founding fathers was not a monolithic group. Thomas Jefferson was a deist. But all of them lived in a strongly Christian based society and culture, and even the non Christian's among them accepted in large part the basic moral tenets of of Christian faith. There is also the issue that the term religion was used a good bit differently then than it is now. This is rarely factored into modern interpretations of the constitution.

            I tend to think no establishment of religion referred more to the idea of what would today call a christian denomination. That is, they would not want the us government establishing the FCC, or the presbyterians as the official faith of the USA,

            I doubt seriously they had any inkling their words would ever be interpreted to mean prayers to the God of the judeo-Christian faith could not be uttered in state supported schools, or that stone monoliths bearing the 10 commandments would be challenged as potentially in violation of their words.

            Jim
            That's probably true. If so -- if that really is the original intent, or the "originalist" reading -- then things like the First Amendment and the "no religious test" clause in the main body of the Constitution really don't preclude, e.g., outlawing the practice of Islam, or prohibiting Muslims from serving in government.

            I don't think I'm comfortable with that.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Nationalist.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Thomas Paine was not a christian, Jefferson was not a christian, Alexander Hamilton was not a christian, some were christians but regardless most, unlike yourself apparently, were free thinkers, and whether they were christians or not is irrellevant. It's not a theocracy seer, and they certainly never intended iot to be.
              Jim, it was a Christian culture, where do you think the Founders got many of their ideals? Look to Christian writers like Locke and Blackstone.

              The Founding Fathers drew heavily upon English philosopher John Locke in establishing America’s First Principles, most notably the recognition of unalienable rights, the Social Compact, and limited government....Locke’s most profound and influential writings were his First and Second Treatise of Civil Government (1689) . Written to defend the Glorious Revolution of 1688, in the Second Treatise, Locke explained that in a state of nature men and women were free to pursue and defend there own interests, which resulted in a brutal state of war. To escape this warfare, individuals established government to secure the peace. Locke noted that there could be “no freedom” without a Social Compact of laws, because “liberty is to be free from restraint and violence from others; which cannot be where there is no law.” http://www.americassurvivalguide.com/john-locke.php
              Jim read Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government, that is where he grounds human rights - in the Bible and the God of the Bible. Jefferson's "Natures God" is directly borrowed from Blackstone - and that was the Biblical God. These things were not created in a vacuum...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Argument by weblink is against the rules --- you got something to say? Say it, and you can use a cite to back it up. You know better, Roy.
                Ok.

                Your claim that abortionists do not attempt to educate people about the possible negative effects of abortion is not true. It takes only seconds to find websites that provide pregnancy and abortion advice such as Planned Parenthood and American Pregnancy that include statements such as this:

                Source: ibid

                Emotional and psychological effects following abortion are more common than physical side effects and can range from mild regret to more serious complications such as depression. It is important to discuss these risks with a trained professional who can address your questions and concerns. The emotional side effects of having an abortion are just as real as physical side effects.

                © Copyright Original Source



                You could and should have checked whether abortionists tell patients about the down side of abortion before claiming they didn't.

                You know better.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                  Hrm... it's interesting, I was going to list a bunch of liberal originalists, but then I realized none of them were judges.

                  Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black absolutely qualifies, but he's hardly current--he retired back in the 1970's. Still, it is notable that one of the best-known originalists/textualists on the Supreme Court was a liberal justice. Of course, he almost certainly would have voted against Roe v. Wade had still been on the court when it was decided (Roe v. Wade was decided less than 2 years after his retirement).

                  Right, I don't know much about Black's legal reasoning, but I just can't think of a liberal justice who is an originalist. It wouldn't be impossible though.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right, I don't know much about Black's legal reasoning, but I just can't think of a liberal justice who is an originalist. It wouldn't be impossible though.
                    And "liberal" in the 70's was nothing at all like "liberal" today. The liberals of today are nuttier than fruitcakes.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      God's "chosen people" were those through whom the Messiah would come.
                      That's not the only difference the Bible mentions. You are playing word games yourself.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                      Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Oh, then you don't want teachers leading class with christian prayers in public schools or christian monuments placed in public places and buildings? Good for you, CP.
                        You could try citing the surveys that show 30+% of Americans would support a constitutional amendment to make Christianity the official religion of the US. Or link to any of the several proposals by state governments to establish Christianity over other religions, including the recent one from Tennessee that declared rights came from God, not from the constitution.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                        Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          You could try citing the surveys that show 30+% of Americans would support a constitutional amendment to make Christianity the official religion of the US.
                          But you would actually provide a link, no?

                          Or link to any of the several proposals by state governments to establish Christianity over other religions,
                          Me not.

                          including the recent one from Tennessee that declared rights came from God, not from the constitution.
                          You mean like.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed… ?
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            But you would actually provide a link, no?



                            Me not.



                            You mean like.... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed… ?
                            The constitution doesn't grant us any rights. It only recognizes the rights we already have and limits control and permissions of the government.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                              Justices really aren't "conservative" or "liberal." Those are somewhat misleading terms, but people use them for convenience. It is more accurate to refer them to judges that reach decisions that are generally favorable to conservative political interests or judges that reach decisions that are generally favorable to liberal political interests. But the actual reaching of those decisions is not based on those political factors. For example, the constitutional question of abortion rests not on the liberal or conservative moral views of it, but the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. That is why the strongly pro-choice John Hart Ely was able to write "The Wages of Crying Wolf", an article harshly criticizing Roe v. Wade as one of the worst decisions of the last several decades.
                              Thanks Terraceth. Are you assuming that the reasons cited in judicial decisions are the actual reasons for the decision, and not just a post-hoc justification? Maybe I'm too cynical, but some SCOTUS opinions seem more like rationalisations.

                              But it comes down to whether judges are biased or not. If they are, then their decisions are not based purely on the law/constitution. If they are not, then appointing "conservative" judges is a pointless exercise.

                              How is this "based on their religion"? Scalia was Catholic, and Rehnquist was ELCA. Neither group is exactly big on young earth creationism, so I doubt either of them held to that belief.

                              You can certainly disagree with their argument, which I myself find questionable, but I have a difficult time seeing how their religions caused them to pronounce such a verdict.
                              It's possible that they believed the Louisiana defendants' claims that teaching creationism in science classes has a secular purpose, as they said in their dissent opinion. But like you, I find their argument questionable. So questionable that I can't help wondering whether they were aware of flaws in the defendents' position but upheld it anyway. Again, maybe I'm too cynical and should stop considering subterfuge where idiocy is an option.

                              Hrm... it's interesting, I was going to list a bunch of liberal originalists, but then I realized none of them were judges.

                              Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black absolutely qualifies, but he's hardly current--he retired back in the 1970's. Still, it is notable that one of the best-known originalists/textualists on the Supreme Court was a liberal justice. Of course, he almost certainly would have voted against Roe v. Wade had still been on the court when it was decided (Roe v. Wade was decided less than 2 years after his retirement).
                              Again, thank you. I wasn't looking forward to searching for examples that might show that originalism and conservatism are on separate axes, especially since I wasn't sure there'd be any.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                                "Judicial conservative" often goes hand-in-hand with "originalist."
                                Often implies not always.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                                Comment

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