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Why I Voted For Trump...

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Well, I'm just thankful that the SCOTUS in their wisdom disagreed with you all as to what the Establishment Clause was meant to convey. No offense Jim.
    Don't be dense Jim, the Court did not convey what the Establishment Clause was meant to say - the clause is perfectly clear. Congress shall make no LAW. No, they invented a meaning that was not inherent to the clause or ever intended - given how the Founders actually did support the Christian religion..
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      The founding fathers was not a monolithic group. Thomas Jefferson was a deist.

      Jim
      No deist would have uttered this:


      This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labour. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        No deist would have uttered this:


        This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labour. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!
        Deists believe in God seer. And Deism in his day was not quite as aloof from an active God as it is today:

        Source: wikipedia

        In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. ... Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day.

        © Copyright Original Source




        Jim
        He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

        "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Well, I'm just thankful that the SCOTUS in their wisdom disagreed with you all as to what the Establishment Clause was meant to convey. No offense Jim.
          No offense taken. The meaning of the word religion in the timeframe in which the words were written was inclusive of things like Islam or Buddhism or Hindu only in a secondary sense. These were not seen as 'true religion' in that time. Monotheism that recognized the Judeo-Christian God as the The only God was what constituted 'true religion', the rest was essentially paganism and not compatible with the principles founding this country. We have veered very far from that and I believe many of the present day interpretations of the relationship between our government and religion as they understood the term are in fact in violation of what the founding fathers intended. They did not want a state church as there was in England. They wanted to continue as the country began as a place where people of varying interpretations of the Christian Bible could exercise their understanding of that text without fear of state interference. And they were inclusive enough in their language, based on how the words were understood and used in that day, to allow people like Jefferson some comfort they would not be able to be oppressed. They never intended for the state to effectively embrace the concept that tends more to a 'freedom FROM religion', where religious (i.e. Judeo Christian based religious) thought and expression was banished from the government.

          Jim
          He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

          "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Deists believe in God seer. And Deism in his day was not quite as aloof from an active God as it is today:

            Source: wikipedia

            In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. ... Jefferson's religion is fairly typical of the American form of deism in his day.

            © Copyright Original Source




            Jim
            That is not classic Deism, it sounds more like a non-descriptive theism.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Roy, "conservative", in this sense, refers to those who will stick to the constitution, and not try to force it to say something it does not say -- like Roe V Wade. Even many liberals admit there was no constitutional basis for that decision - it was clearly activist.
              So those liberals would be "conservative"? I think you're switching between two shades of meaning of "conservative". But no matter.
              Yes, there are very clear reasons liberals can't be origionalists... because their whole platform is PROGRESSIVISM, which is antithetical to CONSERVATIVISM, or originalism, and must be ACTIVIST to "progress".
              I think this is two axes, not one.
              Why can't some-one both interpret the constitution according to its original meaning and want to change the constitution to something else via the amendment process?

              You're suggesting all liberals progressives want to reinterpret the constitution while retaining the original wording, rather that amending the constitution. This seems unlikely.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                That is not classic Deism, it sounds more like a non-descriptive theism.
                Jefferson's religious views are almost universally described as a form of deism in every book I've ever read on him or historical reference to his views I am aware of. e.g. If you take a trip to Monticello, you will be told by many sources there that Thomas Jefferson was a Deist and a Naturalist/Scientist.

                Jim
                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Jefferson's religious views are almost universally described as a form of deism in every book I've ever read on him or historical reference to his views I am aware of. e.g. If you take a trip to Monticello, you will be told by many sources there that Thomas Jefferson was a Deist and a Naturalist/Scientist.

                  Jim
                  Right, but like I said that is not the classic definition of Deism - there is no divine providence or possible wrath.

                  And:While many biographers, as well as some of his contemporaries, have characterized Jefferson as a Deist, historians and scholars have not found any such self-identification in Jefferson's surviving writings.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...rson_and_Deism
                  Last edited by seer; 09-19-2019, 09:35 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Right, but like I said that is not the classic definition of Deism - there is no divine providence or possible wrath.

                    And:While many biographers, as well as some of his contemporaries, have characterized Jefferson as a Deist, historians and scholars have not found any such self-identification in Jefferson's surviving writings.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...rson_and_Deism
                    I would not consider that all that telling. In the time, I don't believe it would not have been acceptable for a leader of the country to express publicly anything other than a more traditional Christian view of God. Indeed, he was often accused of being an infidel.

                    Since he expresses directly he did not accept divine revelation, you can't call him Christian or Jewish in his faith.

                    https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/27532613.pdf

                    Source: above

                    In a letter to William Short, dated October 31, 1817, Jefferson, speaking of "artificial systems invented by ultra-Christian sects", "doctrines added to the teachings of Christ without any authority from Him", names the following: "the immaculate conception [of Christ], his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the eucharist, the Trinity, original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of hierarchy." What is left to believe in? Let us take up the foregoing clauses in detail.

                    Of Jefferson's view of the miraculous birth of Christ we have already spoken, quoting the startling comparison with the myth of Minerva. As to the deification of Christ, Jefferson says he never claimed to be divine. In a letter to Benjamin Rush, dated April 31, 1803, he says : "I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be ; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other." As said already, he regarded Christ as the greatest of moral philosophers. In a letter dated April 19, 1803, he characterized "the moral precepts of Jesus" as more pure, correct, and sub lime than those of the ancient philosophers. "They extended their cares scarcely beyond our kindred and friends individually and our country in the abstract. Jesus embraced, with charity and philanthropy, our neighbors, our countrymen, and the whole family of mankind."

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 09-19-2019, 09:51 AM.
                    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Right, but like I said that is not the classic definition of Deism - there is no divine providence or possible wrath.

                      And:While many biographers, as well as some of his contemporaries, have characterized Jefferson as a Deist, historians and scholars have not found any such self-identification in Jefferson's surviving writings.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...rson_and_Deism
                      Well, regardless, Jeffereson wasn't a christian, seer. He didn't believe in miracles, divine revelation, that Jesus was raised from the dead. Basically, he didn't believe in the bible. So what would you call him?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        By exposing the lies... at our pregnancy center, every day women are astounded at how much the baby has developed because they can see the baby using modern technology. MOST of them will choose not to abort when they see what (who) it is they are killing.
                        Both sides lie. Pro-choicers might use pictures of zygotes and pretend they are several weeks old, but pro-lifers have been known to claim pictures of late-term foetuses represent much earlier states.

                        IIRC one pro-life group even pretended a sculpted doll was a foetus. Science exposed that lie too. (Found it)
                        Actually, in my book, they're based on the principle of the sanctity of human life.
                        I'd say the difference between that and foetal rights is nitpicky.
                        It's not a game - in any sense of the word.
                        That was an analogy.
                        Actually, no. As JimL correctly pointed out, a case has to specifically be brought to them, usually after battling in lower courts. They don't determine "which laws should be upheld" -- they determine which cases presented to them are unconstitutional.
                        They determine whether laws in cases brought to them (or chosen by them) are unconstitutional. Not the cases themselves.*
                        That's a whole lot of word juggling -- they still don't "change the law" - they simply evaluate if it - or part of it - is unconstitutional.
                        You're doing a large amount of word juggling yourself. For one, you're still using "the law(s)" to refer only to a single law and not recognising that it can mean the body of laws as a whole.

                        So, here's my concession -- in the sense that a particular tenant or point or condition of a law is ruled unconstitutional, it has the effect of changing that law.
                        ...and thereby changing the law (i.e. the body of laws currently in force). Which was the original point that everyone misunderstood and wrongly contested.
                        No. The "conservative" judge is, by nature, originalist. Most of us conservatives simply want the judges to "stick to the constitution" and the law - not be activists.
                        That's dependent on which clause in the constitution you're talking about. There are many conservatives who would prefer that judges not "stick to the constitution" and rule that laws which require schools to hold prayer sessions or teach creationism are constitutional. Many of them sit on state education boards.
                        Progressive activist judges need to be removed/replaced.
                        Better to say that any activist judge should be replaced, whether progressive, regressive, pro-religion, anti-religion, pro-abortion, anti-abortion, pro- or anti- death penalty, pro- or anti- slavery, pro- or anti- gun/cannabis/PR-statehood/climate change/tobacco/gene modification/gambling/union/anything-else.
                        It's the stated strategy.

                        1) Vote for Trump, because he will ...
                        2) ... appoint conservative judges, who will
                        3) ... uphold laws against abortion.
                        Stated by whom? Certainly not by me!
                        By Sparko, in post #3.

                        *In those cases which involve judicial review, rather than the majority of cases, in which the court's task is to determine whether laws have been broken.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                        Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          I would not consider that all that telling. In the time, I don't believe it would not have been acceptable for a leader of the country to express publicly anything other than a more traditional Christian view of God. Indeed, he was often accused of being an infidel.

                          Since he expresses directly he did not accept divine revelation, you can't call him Christian or Jewish in his faith.
                          I agree with that. Like I said, probably some form of Unitarianism.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Well, regardless, Jeffereson wasn't a christian, seer. He didn't believe in miracles, divine revelation, that Jesus was raised from the dead. Basically, he didn't believe in the bible. So what would you call him?
                            Right Jim, I never claimed that he was a Christian. I would call him a Unitarian - they had a variety of views from classic Christianity to classic Deism.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              No offense taken. The meaning of the word religion in the timeframe in which the words were written was inclusive of things like Islam or Buddhism or Hindu only in a secondary sense. These were not seen as 'true religion' in that time. Monotheism that recognized the Judeo-Christian God as the The only God was what constituted 'true religion', the rest was essentially paganism and not compatible with the principles founding this country. We have veered very far from that and I believe many of the present day interpretations of the relationship between our government and religion as they understood the term are in fact in violation of what the founding fathers intended. They did not want a state church as there was in England. They wanted to continue as the country began as a place where people of varying interpretations of the Christian Bible could exercise their understanding of that text without fear of state interference. And they were inclusive enough in their language, based on how the words were understood and used in that day, to allow people like Jefferson some comfort they would not be able to be oppressed. They never intended for the state to effectively embrace the concept that tends more to a 'freedom FROM religion', where religious (i.e. Judeo Christian based religious) thought and expression was banished from the government.

                              Jim
                              But, even if that were so, the principle of the Establishment Clause would still hold with respect to other religions as they are now recognised whether the Founders were fully aware or accepting of other religions at that time or not. Besides that, like I said earlier, James Madison himself, the principle author of the Constitution, warned against government sponsered religion which is what leading christian prayer in school and christian monuments in public places and buildings amounts to..
                              The Founders may not have understood or recognized african americans as being human beings at the time either,they didn't, but they understood and recognized the principle that all men are created equal with the same rights and so the government follows that principle today with respect to black people even though they didn't at that time. The Constitution is about the principles writ within it, not the traditions played out at the time. I believe that is how the SCOTUS interprets it as well, and rightly so.
                              Last edited by JimL; 09-19-2019, 10:29 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                After all, there is no attempt by the abortionist to educate her to the down side of abortion.
                                That is simply not true.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                                Comment

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