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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Yeah, I guess the many deists amongst the Founders, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine etc, agreed, eh?

    Deism:
    A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.

    So, yes. Absolutely.

    Next?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      If there is no God and it is just evolution and survival of the fittest then there is no "all are equal" - by definition. The weakest are dominated by the powerful. Slavery is a perfect example of this.
      Not according to the Founders of this country. Besides, you're derailing. It has nothing to do with the Christian god, with a specific religion, because of "the wall between religion and state." Again, it's true that the Founders, many of them were Christians, some were deists, but regardless of their personal preferences, the government did not, and could not, have a preference.





      Well at least you got that last part right. They were against a Theocracy. Which would be a state run religion. But as the declaration of independence and the fact that they had religion IN the government, they were not against religion in government, just a Government run Religion.
      Sparko, having a specific religion in government is a government sponsered religion. No, they did not want that!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        Not according to the Founders of this country. Besides, you're derailing.
        Laughing... translation -- "I'm losing badly".

        It has nothing to do with the Christian god, with a specific religion, because of "the wall between religion and state." Again, it's true that the Founders, many of them were Christians, some were deists, but regardless of their personal preferences, the government did not, and could not, have a preference.
        I covered that for you, Jimmy -- feel free to take a look.

        Sparko, having a specific religion in government is a government sponsered religion. No, they did not want that!
        No, they didn't want government RUNNING religion -- there was nothing precluding religion from having an impact on or service to the government. Hence, military chaplains, house and senate chaplains, prayer before sessions.... all the way back to the founding!
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          Deism:
          A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.

          So, yes. Absolutely.
          So, Yes, absolutely what? That is not the christian god. Are you following the argument at all?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            So, Yes, absolutely what? That is not the christian god. Are you following the argument at all?
            I said "Judeo-Christian" God, Jimmy. And, yes, it was and is.

            Let's try this... pretend you're not just a stubborn jackass , and suggest what "God" it might be if it is NOT the "Judeo-Christian" God, ok?

            I won't even ask for citations. (yet)
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Not according to the Founders of this country. Besides, you're derailing. It has nothing to do with the Christian god, with a specific religion, because of "the wall between religion and state." Again, it's true that the Founders, many of them were Christians, some were deists, but regardless of their personal preferences, the government did not, and could not, have a preference.
              Jim, the DoI was their reasoning for rebelling against England. They believed all men were equal because of what the Christian Bible tells us.

              Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

              Acts 17:26 - And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

              Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[a] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

              They weren't trying to exclude Christianity from being in Government, they depended on it for their very existence. They just did not want a state run denomination, like the Church of England. Because the CoE used it's power to control the people. They had no problem with people in Government being Christian and showing it.

              If you reject a God, especially the Christian God, then you have no basis for arguing for equality or against slavery.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Jim, the DoI was their reasoning for rebelling against England. They believed all men were equal because of what the Christian Bible tells us.

                Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

                Acts 17:26 - And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

                Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[a] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

                They weren't trying to exclude Christianity from being in Government, they depended on it for their very existence. They just did not want a state run denomination, like the Church of England. Because the CoE used it's power to control the people. They had no problem with people in Government being Christian and showing it.

                If you reject a God, especially the Christian God, then you have no basis for arguing for equality or against slavery.
                At this point, I think he's ing --- he does that when he realizes he's really said something stupid, and just starts doubling down on it.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  Deism:
                  A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.

                  So, yes. Absolutely.

                  Next?
                  Actually no, both Jefferson and Franklin believed that God intervene in human affairs. Probably some for of Unitarianism - not classic Christianity.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Actually no, both Jefferson and Franklin believed that God intervene in human affairs. Probably some for of Unitarianism - not classic Christianity.
                    But I've seen various accounts that they didn't actually believe that, but they knew that it was commonly believed, so they went along with it.

                    That might be worth its own thread.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      But I've seen various accounts that they didn't actually believe that, but they knew that it was commonly believed, so they went along with it.

                      That might be worth its own thread.
                      CP, I have been looking into this stuff for years and have never read that. Just look at Franklin's call for prayer, it doesn't seem insincere:

                      Benjamin Franklin delivered this famous speech, asking that the Convention begin each day's session with prayers, at a particularly contentious period, when it appeared that the Convention might break up over its failure to resolve the dispute between the large and small states over representation in the new government. The eighty one year old Franklin asserted that "the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this Truth--that God governs in the Affairs of Men." "I also believe," Franklin continued, that "without his concurring Aid, we shall succeed in this political Building no better than the Builders of Babel."

                      https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06.html

                      Or Jefferson concerning slavery:

                      This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labour. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference!

                      https://teachingamericanhistory.org/...xviii-manners/
                      These are not the words of Deists
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        These are not the words of Deists
                        "The Founding Fathers weren't really Christians" narrative is most commonly promoted by those who want to downplay the extent to which Christianity saturates the foundation of this country.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          "The Founding Fathers weren't really Christians" narrative is most commonly promoted by those who want to downplay the extent to which Christianity saturates the foundation of this country.
                          The majority were Christians, period...

                          The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a very specific group of people, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. Yes, there were other important players, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shape of our nation and who were not in attendance, but the 55 Fathers make up the core.

                          The denominational affiliation of these men is a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson and Franklin, this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.

                          This is a very revealing tally. It means that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, most were Calvinists (the Presbyterians and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity.


                          (John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.)

                          https://www.str.org/quickthoughts/wh...s#.XYLPEX97nIU
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            "The Founding Fathers weren't really Christians" narrative is most commonly promoted by those who want to downplay the extent to which Christianity saturates the foundation of this country.
                            The point isn't that the founding fathers were not christians, or believers in a god, whether theist or deist, the point is that the government/state would not sanction any particular belief system. Besides that, that you would want them to simply means you want a theocratic government. Thank the god I don't believe in, the founding fathers were a lot wiser than you lot.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              The point isn't that the founding fathers were not christians, or believers in a god, whether theist or deist, the point is that the government/state would not sanction any particular belief system. Besides that, that you would want them to simply means you want a theocratic government. Thank the god I don't believe in, the founding fathers were a lot wiser than you lot.
                              The founding fathers was not a monolithic group. Thomas Jefferson was a deist. But all of them lived in a strongly Christian based society and culture, and even the non Christian's among them accepted in large part the basic moral tenets of of Christian faith. There is also the issue that the term religion was used a good bit differently then than it is now. This is rarely factored into modern interpretations of the constitution.

                              I tend to think no establishment of religion referred more to the idea of what would today call a christian denomination. That is, they would not want the us government establishing the FCC, or the presbyterians as the official faith of the USA,

                              I doubt seriously they had any inkling their words would ever be interpreted to mean prayers to the God of the judeo-Christian faith could not be uttered in state supported schools, or that stone monoliths bearing the 10 commandments would be challenged as potentially in violation of their words.

                              Jim
                              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                The founding fathers was not a monolithic group. Thomas Jefferson was a deist. But all of them lived in a strongly Christian based society and culture, and even the non Christian's among them accepted in large part the basic moral tenets of of Christian faith. There is also the issue that the term religion was used a good bit differently then than it is now. This is rarely factored into modern interpretations of the constitution.

                                I tend to think no establishment of religion referred more to the idea of what would today call a christian denomination. That is, they would not want the us government establishing the FCC, or the presbyterians as the official faith of the USA,

                                I doubt seriously they had any inkling their words would ever be interpreted to mean prayers to the God of the judeo-Christian faith could not be uttered in state supported schools, or that stone monoliths bearing the 10 commandments would be challenged as potentially in violation of their words.

                                Jim
                                Well, I'm just thankful that the SCOTUS in their wisdom disagreed with you all as to what the Establishment Clause was meant to convey. No offense Jim.

                                Comment

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