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Why I Voted For Trump...

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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    What's the point? You've all decided I'm lying anyway, so why bother?
    No, Roy, I was actually willing to make a concession.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      Which is extremely defensible. The Establishment Clause declares that the federal congress (later extended to the states via the Fourteenth Amendment) shall not make a law respecting an establishment of religion. Was that monument set by a law, even indirectly? As far as I am aware, it was not.
      Some were, some weren't. IIRC Roy Moore's monument was bussed in secretly overnight, and no law was involved unless there was some budget for maintenance of it that was passed subsequently. But others such as the plaques in schoolrooms and courthouses were installed after local governments passed resolutions to do so.

      Even if we wish to take a broader view of the statement of "make no law", a monument is hardly an "establishment." The historical view of the Establishment Clause, including the "wall" between church and state (a statement found nowhere in the Constitution and given by the one founding father who had nothing to do with its writing and ratification, incidentally, as Thomas Jefferson was serving as ambassador to France at the time), was that the state should be staying out of religious practices (a good, albeit brief, analysis can be found here under the "The path of history" heading). In other words, the state has no business setting up a state church, or going to churches (or any other house of worship) and imposing rules for worship, or requiring people to attend certain churches, that sort of thing. A display of the Ten Commandments is not setting up a state church, is not forcing anyone to worship in particular ways, is not requiring people to believe any particular religious element, etc.
      No, but it does show a preference and recognition for one set of beliefs over others, which is the first step in establishing a religion.
      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

      Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

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      • So, going back to (I'm assuming) the original quote from whence cometh all this discord...

        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        So instead of making a case against abortion
        NOT "instead" - the case against abortion is being made every day, and modern science is really kicking abortion's butt. So ya really got THAT part wrong.

        etc that would persuade existing judges to adopt your views and change the laws,
        And, clearly, judges do not change laws. They don't change laws, they don't change THEM laws, they don't change THE laws.... that's not what judges do.

        you're appointing new judges that already agree with you and who will change the laws regardless of whether there is any reason to do so.
        That's quite an accusation ya got there -- some how, we're going to nominate and confirm dishonest judges with horrible ethics.

        Your entire strategy is an admission that you have no legitimate arguments and all you can do is subvert the legal process, and you voted for Trump because he promised to do so.
        That's really over the top, Roy. I mean --- it's like its own whole conspiracy. It's just downright nutty.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
          No, but it does show a preference and recognition for one set of beliefs over others, which is the first step in establishing a religion.
          You mean like what the Founders did - showing preference for the Christian religion?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            You mean like what the Founders did - showing preference for the Christian religion?
            Ya know, it's amazing how the new atheists wanna work just like the Soviets with this historical revisionism....

            "American was NEVER a Christian Nation"
            "We need to get rid of all this "Christian" stuff in courthouses and historical documents"
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Ya know, it's amazing how the new atheists wanna work just like the Soviets with this historical revisionism....

              "American was NEVER a Christian Nation"
              "We need to get rid of all this "Christian" stuff in courthouses and historical documents"
              Oops!
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Ben Howe, an evangelical, shares his ideas and thoughts on why so many evangelicals support Trump. Rather interesting points:

                Hypocrisy irritates me, but it’s not the objective of the book to have people go, “Those guys are hypocrites.” People know they’re hypocrites. But I think people are misidentifying why they’re hypocrites, and that’s what I wanted to address.
                It comes from a reasonably understandable place. If people feel that their motives are impugned, if they feel they’re not bad people but are being told they are—being told they’re racist or misogynist—it can foster a mentality of victimhood.

                In the minds of a lot of conservatives, the left exists to impugn their motives, and the Republican Party regularly lied to them and said they would defend them and then didn’t. And that was the establishment. Trump became their hero, because he hated the establishment, and he beat up on the media, and he was fighting back against all these forces. The more he fights, the more they feel justified, like, He’s our hero because we needed someone to do this for us.
                And regarding the pro life argument the conversation gets very interesting:

                Green: In your book, you talk a lot about the “but abortion” argument that many pro-life Christians make. For example: Let’s say I’m an evangelical mom involved in the pro-life movement, and I genuinely believe that abortion is the greatest human-rights crisis of our time. And although I don’t like the way that Trump talks about immigrants, I don’t like babies in cages, I don’t like family separation, etc., I think there is a genuine possibility that a Republican will nominate and confirm Supreme Court justices who will overturn Roe v. Wade and lower the number of abortions in the U.S.

                Do you disagree with that as a rationale for supporting Trump?

                Howe: Yes.

                Green: Why?

                Howe: When you make a short-term decision that can have long-term detrimental consequences, as I think Trump will, you are harming your cause. Trump will affect the way the culture views abortion and views conservatism. As a Trump-supporting pro-lifer, can I convince anyone that abortion is wrong? He makes it more difficult.
                https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-trump/596308/
                Last edited by Charles; 09-17-2019, 03:39 PM.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  Ben Howe, an evangelical, shares his ideas and thoughts on why so many evangelicals support Trump. Rather interesting points:





                  And regarding the pro life argument he the conversation gets very interesting:



                  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-trump/596308/
                  Yep you got us all figgered out.

                  sigh.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    Ben Howe, an evangelical, shares his ideas and thoughts on why so many evangelicals support Trump. Rather interesting points:





                    And regarding the pro life argument the conversation gets very interesting:



                    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-trump/596308/
                    If by "interesting" you mean "spectacularly wrong arguments from emotion", yes.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      What does that have to do with the separation of church and state?
                      The Founders recognized that slavery was not Constitutional as written into the Constitution, yet slavery was still legal at the time and for about 8 decades thereafter. They also recognized, in the Establishment Clause, that the government had no business with religion, other than protecting its freedom, even though some aspects of religion and tradition still existed in government at the time. Separation of church and state.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        You mean like what the Founders did - showing preference for the Christian religion?
                        What the Founders did in the Constitution was the exact opposite of showing preference, even if personally they had one.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          The only thing they were against was a state-run church, like The Church of England. They had no problems with already established religion and churches in government. In fact there was a church in the US Capitol until well after the Civil War.
                          The government being against a state run church means no preference for any church, any religion, and monuments in public buildings and schools is showing a preference. Doesn't matter what existed at the time, like slavery was finally corrected in accordance with their Constitutional thought process, so too was any governments role in religions.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            What the Founders did in the Constitution was the exact opposite of showing preference, even if personally they had one.
                            Then why did they do this?

                            Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war. Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people. This agreement stipulated that they "should be prosperous or afflicted, according as their general Obedience or Disobedience thereto appears." Wars and revolutions were, accordingly, considered afflictions, as divine punishments for sin, from which a nation could rescue itself by repentance and reformation.

                            https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Then why did they do this?
                              He has already been shown that, and is being deliberately stubbornly ignorant.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Then why did they do this?
                                I think I gave explanation for that already. Though the Founding fathers were themselves, mostly christians, just as they were slave holders, they understood that ultimately government could not discriminate in either case. Being that they were mostly christian at the time, they did continue to to discriminate when it came to religion still, even against the warning of the main author of the Constitution, one James Madison. But what they did, and what the Constitution said were two different things in both cases, i.e. with respect to both slavery and religion.

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