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  • #61
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    You don't have to "quote mine" anything. The verses ordering the forcible conversion are among the very last and abrogated any verses encouraging peaceful co-existence.
    It is a quote-mine because of the fact almost every single Islam Scholar worth their salt would quote you the simple verse that says that there's to be no force in conversion; They'd then make a discussion of those particular cases, and how they actually constitute a protection of people in that instance, in those circumstances, showing the later further development of dhimmi's. Which strikes me as a strong parallel to the Christians who labor intense with the exegesis of the old testament showing how people were given a chance to convert during the Canaanite conquest, and how them being enslaved and becoming second-class citizens for life was a grace.

    You really only see a lot of forced conversion with the rise of the rather violent Wahabi strain of Islam.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      She's condemned the terrorism, you're just mad she doesn't blame it on Islam.
      Actually she didn't.

      September 11th was an attack on all of us.

      We will never forget the thousands of Americans who lost their lives in the largest terror attack on U.S. soil.

      I will continue to fight to make sure we care for the first responders and families who lost loved ones.
      She just said she will never forget it and expressed sympathy for the victims.

      Sounds very carefully worded to me. Probably written by some marketing staffer.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        She just said she will never forget it and expressed sympathy for the victims.

        Sounds very carefully worded to me. Probably written by some marketing staffer.
        Seriously? You're not being ironic right now or larping?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Seriously? You're not being ironic right now or larping?
          Do you see any swords?

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Do you see any swords?
            Hey, you're the one dressed as a pirate Sparko.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              I suggest that you look up Miftah, the group sponsoring their trip, which has, among other things, proudly praised female suicide bombers and routinely pushes the medieval blood libel (the long disproven myth that Jews ritually sacrifice Christian children at Passover in order to obtain blood for unleavened bread).
              Thanks. I read this rather interesting analysis: Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Miftah, and the problem of anti-Semitism within the movement for Palestinians' right to self-determination

              Some interesting quotes from the article in case anyone takes interest:

              Miftah's website has featured praise for Palestinian suicide bombers that have indiscriminately murdered civilians, an anti-Semitic treatise lifted from an American neo-Nazi website, and an article which claimed that the Jews use the blood of Christians during Passover the eternally deployed "blood libel" against Jews. Miftah promptly apologized for the blood libel post, and blamed its publication on a junior staffer.
              Its founders include the late writer Edward Said, one of the most celebrated public intellectuals of the late 20th century, and its funders include the European Union, the United Nations, Oxfam, and a string of individual European governments. Its mission statement is to "promote the principles of democracy and good governance" in Palestine, and it is primarily focused on female empowerment and various sustainability projects.

              As is often the case with entities pushing for revolution, Miftah can't be defined solely by its most disagreeable aspects. Yet its critics are hardly engaged in convenient cherry-picking.
              The congresswomen's outright dismissal of legitimate concerns about Miftah may have been crass, but it is not devoid of reasoning. President Trump has turned a blind eye to Israel's human rights violations and treated the Palestinian people as though they don't exist.
              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And its an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                The Bible has an entire section where God Himself called openly for genocide. And that it was explicit genocide as well, with even children being killed as part of the order.
                We are New Testament Christians, Leon -- a whole new Covenant. I am not bound by Old Testament customs and traditions and laws, and God never told Christians to murder people.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  It is a quote-mine because of the fact almost every single Islam Scholar worth their salt would quote you the simple verse that says that there's to be no force in conversion; They'd then make a discussion of those particular cases, and how they actually constitute a protection of people in that instance, in those circumstances, showing the later further development of dhimmi's. Which strikes me as a strong parallel to the Christians who labor intense with the exegesis of the old testament showing how people were given a chance to convert during the Canaanite conquest, and how them being enslaved and becoming second-class citizens for life was a grace.

                  You really only see a lot of forced conversion with the rise of the rather violent Wahabi strain of Islam.
                  That is one of the verses abrogated by the forced conversion verses. It is a practice called naskh ("abrogation") where later revelations supersede or nullify earlier once that they contradict.

                  In fact, the doctrine of naskh is directly stated in the Qur'an itself (2:106)[1]: "Such of our revelation as we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof." So any later statement that contradicts an earlier one is thought to be better and abrogates the earlier statement[2] -- and nearly all Muslim scholars agree that the Surah Bara'ah (the ninth) was the very last surah in the Qur'an that was revealed (although a few say it was al-Nasr or surah 110) meaning what is contained in it abrogates virtually everything else.

                  This practice caused Muhammad's opponents to declare that he was a calumniator and didn't receive inspiration from God because he changed his mind whenever he wished. While Muslims have no problem with this, it is recognized in the Qur'an itself that others do: "And when we put one revelation in place of another revelation and Allah knows best what he reveals they say, 'Lo! Thou art but inventing' (16:101).


                  As a further note, the concept of taqqiya (or idtirar) comes into play far too frequently among Islamic scholars when speaking to Western/infidel audiences and should be kept in mind.











                  1. 2:106 isn't the only verse in the Qur'an that mentions the concept of naskh/"abrogation" (where a later pronouncement by Muhammad nullifies an earlier one). There are at least three others cited by Islamic scholars:
                  • Surah 13:39: Allah abrogates or confirms whatsoever he will, for he has with him the Book of the Books.
                  • Surah 16:101: And when we put one revelation in place of another revelation and Allah knows best what he reveals they say, 'Lo! Thou art but inventing'
                  • Surah 17:86: Had we willed, we could take away what we have revealed to you, then you would find none to help you in recovering it from us.


                  2. AFAICT, without exception, all Islamic religious scholars state that abrogation not only included the abolishing, dropping or replacing of a verse by another (often contradictory) verse, but it also includes abolishing a provision of a verse without eliminating its wording or text from the Qur'an. So the verses that were later repealed and replaced remain in the Qur'an but are no longer in effect.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    Thanks. I read this rather interesting analysis: Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Miftah, and the problem of anti-Semitism within the movement for Palestinians' right to self-determination

                    Some interesting quotes from the article in case anyone takes interest:
                    I could direct you to other sources with a far less rosy appraisal of miftah, and a few point out that many of those in positions of control still promote the "blood libel" claim whether or not the organization officially still does.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Hey, you're the one dressed as a pirate Sparko.
                      But back to Omar. She very carefully never condemns islamic terrorists. She will condemn white supremacists, Trump, and Israel. But she won't outright condemn or speak out against any islamic terrorists like Al Qaeda.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        I could direct you to other sources with a far less rosy appraisal of miftah, and a few point out that many of those in positions of control still promote the "blood libel" claim whether or not the organization officially still does.
                        I don't see how rosy appraisal applies to the description given though I don't doubt you could find those who would be more critical (and of course those who would be less).
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And its an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          But back to Omar. She very carefully never condemns islamic terrorists. She will condemn white supremacists, Trump, and Israel. But she won't outright condemn or speak out against any islamic terrorists like Al Qaeda.
                          At that point it becomes "some people did something."

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            At that point it becomes "some people did something."
                            And:

                            I do not expect every time there is a white supremacist who attacks or there is a white man who kills in a school or in a movie theater, or in a mosque, or in a synagogue, I dont expect my white community members to respond on whether they love that person or not. And so I think it is beyond time, it is beyond time to ask Muslims to condemn terrorists. We are no longer going to allow the dignification of such ridiculous ridiculous statement".
                            https://thefederalist.com/2019/07/16...mic-terrorism/
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And its an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              We are New Testament Christians, Leon -- a whole new Covenant. I am not bound by Old Testament customs and traditions and laws, and God never told Christians to murder people.
                              Why are you allowed to apply context, interpretation and exegesis to the Bible, but the Quran has to be interpreted the same way atheists interpret the Bible?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                But back to Omar. She very carefully never condemns islamic terrorists. She will condemn white supremacists, Trump, and Israel. But she won't outright condemn or speak out against any islamic terrorists like Al Qaeda.
                                I remember asking Cow Poke why he never criticises Conservatives, and he answered "Because they're already criticised by the leftists all the time, so I don't have to"

                                Comment

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