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Trump the Needler

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
    The key here is triage. He lies too much for anyone to keep up, so fact checkers need to pick and choose, and naturally enough, they choose the worst, skewing his ratios. That's the sampling bias I was speaking about.
    I understand the concept, and recall the basics from the several college courses I took when finishing my degree.

    What I'm saying is, when I listen with my own ears and read with my own eyes the President's words, that corroborates the fact that Trump has a casual relationship with the truth. I get that what I just said is anecdotal (which has it's own sampling problems), but I'm not aware of better sources of information regarding Trump's truthfulness.

    Are you prepared to argue that Trump is MORE honest, in general, than other politicians? Because if not, then the sampling bias in Politifact's process isn't all that interesting to me. My point is, he's a liar.
    "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Talk sense, just once.
      Teal, Sam is talking sense. You're simply unwilling to listen. What's that phrase, people believe what they want to believe? Yeah.

      Is there literally no circumstance for which you would publicly make your boss like a moron? Literally nothing? Including people's lives and livelihoods? Because we are talking about that here.
      "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        This ... may not hold up as the Roger Stone trial gets underway. Trump reportedly sent Stone to go looking for Clinton's "missing emails" and Stone allegedly (by the Mueller investigation) found his way to Wikileaks which, by that time, was suspected by US intelligence as being a cut-out for Russian hack n' dump operations. Stone allegedly discovered that Wikileaks was holding the Podesta emails and worked with Assange/Wikileaks to time the emails in such a way that maximized benefit to Trump (the Podesta emails began to be released in the hour following the Access Hollywood tape and would drip out piecemeal for weeks afterward).

        According to recently released pre-trial documents, four numbers for Donald Trump, along with numbers for his family and close aides during the campaign, are relevant to Stone's upcoming trial. Trump is implicated (although he could not be directly named or charged, as President) in directing Stone's Wikileaks-optimization of "dirt", which is very similar in nature to courting Russian offers of "dirt" earlier in the campaign.

        The Trump Tower Moscow dealings continued, according to Michael Cohen, through the summer of 2016 and up through November.

        --Sam
        I'm not sure how what you said disagrees with anything I said. I do appreciate the information, though. Didn't know some of that.
        "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Before I tackle this (tomorrow - I already owe Leo an answer) tell me why it's okay to be rude, in public, to a superior, when there's no need to be rude?
          I've had to say rude things, in public, to supervisors before. You know what? It WAS ok to be rude, when the wrong person was about to be arrested. Or when someone needs immediate medical attention and is literally dying.

          You work in healthcare, and you can't imagine a scenario (however unlikely) in which you'd do something a supervisor might think was rude to help someone or save someone's life? Being nice has no place in an emergency situation, and that's what was happening -- a massive storm bearing down on our country. I'm not saying I agree with NOAA's assessment of how necessary it was contradict Trump publicly (I'm no meteorologist), but I'm fascinated by how you've doubled down on this.
          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

          Comment


          • #80
            Sorry, didn't mean to imply any strong disagreement. Just pointing out that it's not necessarily true that Trump or his campaign changed course RE: Russian interference over the course of the campaign.

            --Sam

            Originally posted by myth View Post
            I'm not sure how what you said disagrees with anything I said. I do appreciate the information, though. Didn't know some of that.
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              Talk sense, just once.
              Sam's post made plenty of sense and summed up my point well (as did myth's similar recounting of workplace incidences where tact had to go out the window.) Seriously, is everything okay? It's really odd that you're doubling down on this, and your resorting to ad homs is uncharacteristic.
              Last edited by KingsGambit; 09-07-2019, 08:27 PM.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                When? The map in question was based on that briefing - he later stated the model changed while explaining why he'd mentioned Alabama.

                Seriously, this is the stupidest controversy ever.
                And you believe that his staff briefed him on a 4 day old report regarding the hurricanes route. Don't try to defend all the dumb things Trump does Tea, it makes you look bad as well.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  Stupidly interpreting the law also undermines it - altering a map for official release (the ones the law concerns) is not the same thing as drawing on an official map. No one - totally irrespective of the DOJ's finding - would EVER be prosecuted for taking a sharpie to a map like that. That's not what the law is about.

                  Whoever drew on it was imitating an earlier map - there's literally no rational way to make that into an attempt to commit fraud.

                  You and Sam were just discussing a serious issue that is a valid criticism as a freaking side note. But you think Sharpiegate matters?!
                  It wasn't an attempt to commit fraud, it was his public attempt, another lie, to cover for his mistake rather than admitting to it.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    There was no map that included a small hump over to AL on the cone but Trump has far greater legal issues to worry about.

                    The main problem here -- beyond Trump's inability to understand a map or keep up-to-date with hurricane projections (supposedly the reason he canceled his Poland trip), or admit a small screw-up -- is how the White House is compelling federal agencies to backtrack and cover for his mistake. Now NOAA is getting into the mess by releasing an unattributed statement that NWS was wrong to correct Trump about Alabama getting hit "hard" on Sept. 1 because earlier maps showed a small chance (<10%) that some of AL would see tropical storm-force winds.

                    That's a big deal and it mirror's Trump's earlier attempts to get the Park Service to cover for his false claim about inauguration crowds and his obstructive attempt to get Don McGahn to create a false record. The President should not be directing agencies and employees to create what they know to be false or misleading statements.

                    --Sam
                    What's even worse is he has the Pentagon covering up for his use of the military to bolster his businesses. Instead of fueling up at the usual military bases where the fuel is much cheaper, he has military supply planes going to the mideast fueling up at a struggling public airport near his Scotland golf resort (to the tune of 11 million dollars) and making the crews stay at his resort. The Pentagon has actually balked at turning over those records to Congress.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      What's even worse is he has the Pentagon covering up for his use of the military to bolster his businesses. Instead of fueling up at the usual military bases where the fuel is much cheaper, he has military supply planes going to the mideast fueling up at a struggling public airport near his Scotland golf resort (to the tune of 11 million dollars) and making the crews stay at his resort. The Pentagon has actually balked at turning over those records to Congress.
                      $17.2 million, by latest count. A career military contractor made (or renewed) a fuel contract with the airport in August 2016 but military expenditures at the airport, according to current reporting, had not topped $200k/year before 2017. The extent to which military flights are being purposefully and wastefully diverted to the airport will be crucial to understand.

                      Of course, that wouldn't explain the military stay-overs at Trump Turnberry, which is some ways from the airport and more expensive than most other options, including many within minutes of the tarmac. That's clearly a corrupt use of government resources.

                      It seems the Trump administration has directed all agencies to not comply with Congressional subpoenas. Related, the DOJ is currently arguing that Congress cannot ask a court to enforce a subpoena against the executive branch -- it must request that DOJ do so.

                      Truly breathtaking times.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Ok, then

                        Source: NOAA staff warned in Sept. 1 directive against contradicting Trump. Andrew Freedman, Colby Itkowitz and Jason Samenow. The Washington Post. 2019.09.07

                        In an agencywide directive sent Sept. 1 to National Weather Service personnel, hours after Trump asserted, with no evidence, that Alabama “would most likely be hit (much) harder than anticipated,” staff was told to “only stick with official National Hurricane Center forecasts if questions arise from some national level social media posts which hit the news this afternoon.”

                        They were also told not to “provide any opinion,” according to a copy of the email obtained by The Washington Post.


                        A NOAA meteorologist who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retribution said the note, understood internally to be referring to Trump, came after the National Weather Service office in Birmingham contradicted Trump by tweeting Alabama would “NOT see any impacts from the hurricane.”


                        The Birmingham office sent the tweet after receiving a flurry of phone calls from concerned residents following Trump’s message.

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Emphasis added

                        --Sam
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by myth View Post
                          I understand the concept, and recall the basics from the several college courses I took when finishing my degree.

                          What I'm saying is, when I listen with my own ears and read with my own eyes the President's words, that corroborates the fact that Trump has a casual relationship with the truth. I get that what I just said is anecdotal (which has it's own sampling problems), but I'm not aware of better sources of information regarding Trump's truthfulness.

                          Are you prepared to argue that Trump is MORE honest, in general, than other politicians? Because if not, then the sampling bias in Politifact's process isn't all that interesting to me. My point is, he's a liar.
                          No worries. My (geeky) point isn't likely to be interesting to anyone other than other geeks. My point is that he's a liar because he lies, not because his pants-on-fire ratio is higher than the competition.

                          The fact checkers' principle contribution isn't in the raw counts or ratios, but in the detailed rebuttals. Their secondary contribution is in outing the partisans too invested in their politics to be held accountable to the truth.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by myth View Post
                            I've had to say rude things, in public, to supervisors before. You know what? It WAS ok to be rude, when the wrong person was about to be arrested. Or when someone needs immediate medical attention and is literally dying.
                            I was in that situation once when I had called for an ambulance upon finding a man passed out in a parking lot of a drugstore. My shift commander heard me call for the squad, and arrived on scene and ordered me to cancel the ambulance. I was trying to tell him the guy was in a serious medical condition, but my shift commander kept insisting the guy was a drunk, and just needed to be taken to the drunk tank. I ended up getting pretty 'insubordinate', because I believed the guy wouldn't make it to the drunk tank alive.

                            Just then, the city doctor happened by, on his way home from a benefit. He checked out the victim, and immediately announced the man was in insulin shock and needed immediate attention as he was slipping into a diabetic coma.

                            (I had just been to breathalyzer training, and this was a textbook case of insulin shock vs inebriation)
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Just then, the city doctor happened by ...
                              I've been in towns that small before, likely even smaller. There's a lot of them in the foothills of the rockies, from Colorado south to the border, where they try to bump their cred on highway signage by leaving out the pop and replacing it with elevation.

                              At a glance, at 70 mph, the towns look bigger that way.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                Seriously, is everything okay?
                                This.

                                Comment

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