// Required code

Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

NYT - Trump Administration Considers a Drastic Cut in Refugees Allowed to Enter

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
    I'm ambivalent as to the practical effect of -Roe- as a national ultimatum.
    It played a major role in the polarization we see in the US political climate, which also has the effect of making each party relatively monolithic in terms of policy, meaning it's very hard to simultaneously be in favor of allowing more refugees to enter and being in favor of greater abortion restrictions. You'd have a much easier time trying to convince people of your position on refugees if not for this polarization.

    Granted, Roe v. Wade wasn't the only thing that caused this polarization, but it was a major one.

    But I don't think either side of the debate (at least among the ardent folk) can carve out a scenario where it's anything but: if a constitutional right, then it's a national ultimatum. If fetal life is to be protected the same as others and considered a full legal person, then it's a national ban.

    The middle ground requires a more nuanced approach to "potential life" or some other middle-point between conception and legal personhood.
    Except the "middle ground" is quite easy: Leave it to the discretion of the legislatures. States that favor abortion restriction can enact it, and states that do not favor it can allow abortion. That's what was done before the Supreme Court, in perhaps the most blatant example of "legislating from the bench" that has ever occurred in US history, announced its decision in Roe v. Wade. The Constitution simply does not require nor forbid abortion bans/restrictions.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      It played a major role in the polarization we see in the US political climate, which also has the effect of making each party relatively monolithic in terms of policy, meaning it's very hard to simultaneously be in favor of allowing more refugees to enter and being in favor of greater abortion restrictions. You'd have a much easier time trying to convince people of your position on refugees if not for this polarization.

      Granted, Roe v. Wade wasn't the only thing that caused this polarization, but it was a major one.
      I'm more of the opinion that abortion issues were used as a tool for polarization by partisans pursuing an explicit strategy rather than a cause of partisanship in itself but I agree that it has exacerbated the partisan divide.

      I wholly disagree that the partisan divide should have any bearing at all on refugee admissions -- that's never been a partisan issue. If the idea is that any issue can be yanked out and made partisan for some party or politician's political gain, I do agree ... but I think that this then just serves as a modern-day example of what happened RE: abortion.

      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      Except the "middle ground" is quite easy: Leave it to the discretion of the legislatures. States that favor abortion restriction can enact it, and states that do not favor it can allow abortion. That's what was done before the Supreme Court, in perhaps the most blatant example of "legislating from the bench" that has ever occurred in US history, announced its decision in Roe v. Wade. The Constitution simply does not require nor forbid abortion bans/restrictions.
      That doesn't strike me as tenable, for the reasons mentioned earlier. If the right to privacy does indeed extend to abortion (in some circumstances), then it's a constitutional right and state legislatures aren't able to override the Constitution. If fetuses are "persons" (from conception or heartbeat or quickening), then leaving their protection to state legislatures doesn't make any more sense than leaving the decision to criminalize murder to state legislatures -- if Maine decided that murder would be removed from its criminal code, would the federal government say "OK, cool" or would it make law to prosecute murders in Maine under the federal code?

      If we agree that there even can be a middle-ground solution, I think that presupposes the "pro-life" side of that argument starts from a position of state interest in potential persons and stops before it gets to considering fetuses before the cutoff week actualized persons.

      --Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        He knows what it is and you do it all the time to people you disagree with. And you get away with it because people that you might listen to never call you on it. Because for the most part honesty and truth play second or third fiddle to being able to claim some sort of victory in a debate on these pages.

        Jim


        Right. "Gaslighting" doesn't mean proving someone wrong, or pointing out their hypocrisy, or even changing one's opinion over time. It is, rather, an attempt to make someone question their recollection of past events.

        For example, it's indisputable that President Trump has, on multiple occasions, explicitly condemned racism, but liberals (and those who think like them) will try to convince you that Trump once described white supremacists as "very fine people"; or that he described immigrants in general as "animals" when he was quite clearly talking about animalistic MS13 gang members who operate with the motto "Rape, murder, control."

        That's gaslighting. What's happening in this thread is not.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          It's not the debate I want to have; it's the smokescreen response you and Bill came up with to avoid the implications of providing support to a deeply anti-Christian policy being implemented by supposedly Christian politicians.

          --Sam
          In what world did I support it? I merely refuted your idiocy in quoting scripture to complain about a secular policy. And bringing abortion up was simply a way to show your inconsistency in what you consider "a deeply anti-Christian policy".
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
            And what, exactly, are the administration's reasons for zeroing out refugee resettlement?

            Have you even sought that out?

            Do you even care to?

            --Sam
            It's a google away, Sam...

            … the administration was directing more resources to address the hundreds of thousands of mainly Central American families and children who have crossed the U.S. border with Mexico during the past year, many seeking refuge in the United States.

            “Our focus has been on dealing with the asylum influx (at the U.S. border), and prioritizing those cases,” the official said.
            U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has already shifted refugee caseworkers to instead work on asylum cases, the official said - and will continue to shift more - reducing the number of refugee files that can be handled no matter where the cap is set. The official did not provide details on how many case officers had been reassigned.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              This is a ridiculous distortion of sams words. His statements point out the hypocrisy of caring for one and not the other. You act like he's putting a different value on them, but the reality is it is you that is putting a different value on them.
              Out of caution for your fragile mental state, I will refrain from giving your post the response it so richly deserves. I am not putting different value on either. Everyone has the right to live. Refugees have many options to choose from, and in fact, most all of them choose other countries other than the US. The unborn have no other options.

              That is the point.

              What you need to consider is what it means to care about one and not the other. They are both applications of the same basic principle - to look out for the innocent, to care for the poor and the helpless

              Jim
              To which Sam provides tacit support for the violation of that principle for the pre-20 week unborn.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Sam is not talking about forcing the government's hand. He talking about lending support to the goverment's hand when it is doing something immoral.
                No he isn't. He is using a Bible verse to brow beat his political opponents in a manner the Pharisees would applaud.


                Given the context, lets put it in basic, stark terms

                It is just as immoral to support trumps cutback on refugies as it would be to support the unhindered legalized abortion of third trimester unborn babies.
                No it isn't. Refugees have literally over a hundred other options besides the US and the freedom to exercise those options. The unborn have ZERO options and no freedom to even have a say.

                In fact, it is just as immoral as supporting post birth abortion. Because it condemns many innocent men women and children to death that under the original pooicy would have lived


                Jim
                You'll do ANYTHING to deride Trump, won't you? Even resort to dishonesty...
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                  This has been answered fully: the resettlement of refugees is not a strictly Christian pursuit.

                  Neither you, nor Bill, nor anyone else has made an endeavor to show how refugee resettlement conflicts with the public good, let alone such that the government would be reasonable in zeroing out resettlement.

                  You're hiding prejudice behind a strawman.

                  --Sam
                  Originally posted by Darth Vader
                  The horse poop is STRONG with this one
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    If that's the debate you wished to have then perhaps that's how you should have started the thread instead of quoting scripture and then self-righteously brow beating anybody who didn't agree with your application of it.
                    Bingo.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      No, I'm arguing that as an elected official, there are other considerations than just one's religious beliefs.
                      And that armchair wannabe's like Sam have no clue about the greater picture. They read their MSM biased "news" and think they have even the basest clue of how the government works, or how Christian values fit into that.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        It's a google away, Sam...

                        … the administration was directing more resources to address the hundreds of thousands of mainly Central American families and children who have crossed the U.S. border with Mexico during the past year, many seeking refuge in the United States.

                        “Our focus has been on dealing with the asylum influx (at the U.S. border), and prioritizing those cases,” the official said.
                        U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has already shifted refugee caseworkers to instead work on asylum cases, the official said - and will continue to shift more - reducing the number of refugee files that can be handled no matter where the cap is set. The official did not provide details on how many case officers had been reassigned.
                        What's the USCIS budget for asylum applications? Again, do you even care to know?

                        Ken Cuccenelli is currently helping the administration not only reduce the number of asylum claims that can be arbitrated in court but reducing the number of people who can claim asylum altogether, increasing speedy deportations.

                        We're not -increasing- asylum capacity; we're increasing detention capacity, which is also unnecessary, expensive, and cruel.

                        That's not a considered, evidenced reason, it's another smokescreen ... which anyone who gave a tinker's damn about the wellbeing of asylum seekers and refugees would know from a quick google.

                        --Sam
                        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          Galilee and Egypt were, in fact, two different lands. One being a place in Judea, one being, well, Egypt.
                          Reduced to totally ignoring my argument in favor of repeating your own flawed one, eh?
                          Christ was a refugee who could not stay in His own land for fear of death. He was able to emigrate and find safety in a different land. It's shameful to try and parse that out in such a way that refugees in similar danger can be excluded.

                          --Sam
                          There is shameful parsing going on here, but you're fingering the wrong party.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            Out of caution for your fragile mental state, I will refrain from giving your post the response it so richly deserves. I am not putting different value on either. Everyone has the right to live. Refugees have many options to choose from, and in fact, most all of them choose other countries other than the US. The unborn have no other options.
                            Refugees awaiting resettlement don't "choose" their country of residence. They apply to UNHCR, interview, (sometimes) get paired to a country, interview and then (sometimes) get resettled. Inasmuch as they can choose at all, it's through the "illegal immigration" that Conservatives have seen fit to demonize.

                            But most refugees, if they don't get matched to a new country through UNHCR, stay in camps. And many of them die there, awaiting resettlement.

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Reduced to totally ignoring my argument in favor of repeating your own flawed one, eh?

                              There is shameful parsing going on here, but you're fingering the wrong party.
                              Your argument was that Egypt and Judea were under the same "governmental system". That either means

                              1) The Roman Empire
                              2) The Roman Empire's "controlled areas"
                              3) The same government operating under supervision of the Roman Empire

                              None serve the argument you try to make. Herod, the king, didn't have reach into Egypt, which is why Joseph and Mary fled there. It was not the "same governmental system". So you must mean something else.

                              There's only one party in America today arguing that refugee resettlement should be zeroed out and that asylum seekers should be "sent back" without even a trial.

                              --Sam
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post

                                Heck, we're not even a single presidential term removed from people arguing that a Muslim ban was not only acceptable but a good, even necessary idea.

                                --Sam
                                This statement right here shows that you have ZERO interest in anything other than leftist talking points.

                                Source: Politifact

                                Although five of the seven nations in the order have Muslim-majority populations, "that fact alone does not support an inference of religious hostility," Justice Roberts added, saying that the policy covered 8 percent of the world's Muslim population and was limited to countries previously designated by Congress or other administrations as posing national security risks.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by seanD, Yesterday, 07:54 PM
                                6 responses
                                71 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Raphael
                                by Raphael
                                 
                                Started by Sparko, 09-29-2020, 02:32 PM
                                126 responses
                                873 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Juvenal, 09-29-2020, 09:54 AM
                                14 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by seer, 09-29-2020, 09:50 AM
                                45 responses
                                384 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post firstfloor  
                                Started by seer, 09-28-2020, 05:35 PM
                                31 responses
                                250 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post mikewhitney  
                                Working...
                                X