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  • #46
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    Off the top of my head? Push the Pakistanis to do something, and expose them if they let Osama escape.
    That would be an option if there were a stable government in Pakistan.

    Right, you may not view this option as the "best" option", but unlike some, I don't see vengeance as the necessary goal which reached, justifies everything.
    You keep coming back to this "everything" or "any time you wish" stuff.

    Neither do I believe that complete justice will be achieved here and now.
    Nor do I. Perhaps we should all just sit back and cede the world to Islamist militant extremists.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Yeah, haters gonna hate. When was the last time the world was shocked by a headline "Muslim World OUTRAGED". They have convulsions over cartoons.
      But it's not like every single citizen of Muslim nations is involved in every single thing. There might be some people who are relatively apathetic (kind of like our twice a year Christians here) who might be jolted into action once somebody gets them riled up, and maybe this would be the spark that it needs.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
        Off the top of my head? Push the Pakistanis to do something, and expose them if they let Osama escape. Right, you may not view this option as the "best" option", but unlike some, I don't see vengeance as the necessary goal which reached, justifies everything. Neither do I believe that complete justice will be achieved here and now.
        I don't see vengeance as the sole possible motivation for such a course of action. His death did set Al Qaeda back a long ways and forced them to scramble to regroup.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #49
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          But it's not like every single citizen of Muslim nations is involved in every single thing.
          Absolutely agreed.

          There might be some people who are relatively apathetic (kind of like our twice a year Christians here) who might be jolted into action once somebody gets them riled up, and maybe this would be the spark that it needs.
          Unfortunately, as we see when there's a "downed helicopter" or something, they have no problem pouring into the streets and screaming "death to America". And where are the leading Imams and Prophets who denounce the "perversion" of Islamic Jihad? But, yes, I hope that one day the broader Muslim world community will tire of a select group of "leaders" using Islam to spread death and hate.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • #50
            ok I found the thread. sheesh.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              ok I found the thread. sheesh.
              Yeah. It should be renamed "Blame America First".
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yeah. It should be renamed "Blame America First".

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I don't see vengeance as the sole possible motivation for such a course of action. His death did set Al Qaeda back a long ways and forced them to scramble to regroup.
                  I don't think I ever claimed it was the sole motivation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                    Off the top of my head? Push the Pakistanis to do something, and expose them if they let Osama escape.
                    Try really hard to think how incredibly naive this is. They were HIDING him. Our enemies were living INSIDE THEIR BORDERS, and they KNEW it. So, how, exactly, do we "push" them to do something? And who, specifically, do we push? Do we threaten to beat them up? Stop giving them billions of dollars? Unfriend them on facebook?

                    I think this is perhaps the most naive thing I've seen you say.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Try really hard to think how incredibly naive this is. They were HIDING him. Our enemies were living INSIDE THEIR BORDERS, and they KNEW it.
                      As you have repeatedly mentioned, the governing organisations were not completely working together; it is likely that at least some of them knew he was there, but I doubt "they" all knew it.
                      So, how, exactly, do we "push" them to do something? And who, specifically, do we push? Do we threaten to beat them up? Stop giving them billions of dollars? Unfriend them on facebook?

                      I think this is perhaps the most naive thing I've seen you say.
                      Amongst other things, they could threaten military intervention, exposing the fact that Osama is harboured there, economic or aid pressure, etc. Rather than a sign of my naivety, I think it shows that you lack creativity.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Now that is interesting - why is all human life valuable?
                        I don't believe in an afterlife, so death is, with one exception*, the worst thing that can ever happen. When someone dies, the universe dies, as far as they are concerned. I think we owe it to all human beings to not take such a precious thing away from them, no matter what**. Compare this to the idea in Christianity that all humans have a chance of redemption. Although only God has the ability to take this away from someone, if you can imagine humans having this capability, you would no doubt think it a horrible thing.

                        *Constant and grievous suffering creating an unbearable state of living.

                        **The obvious exception being when a person seeks to take someone else's life.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          As you have repeatedly mentioned, the governing organisations were not completely working together; it is likely that at least some of them knew he was there, but I doubt "they" all knew it.
                          I think that's an accurate statement -- but the people IN POWER knew it.

                          Amongst other things, they could threaten military intervention,
                          Yeah, and tip our hand to give them yet ANOTHER opportunity to say "ooooops, sorry, he got away".

                          exposing the fact that Osama is harboured there, economic or aid pressure, etc.
                          Incredibly naive.

                          Rather than a sign of my naivety, I think it shows that you lack creativity.
                          Seal Team Six demonstrated quite a bit of creativity - that's why Osama is dead.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                            I don't believe in an afterlife, so death is, with one exception*, the worst thing that can ever happen. When someone dies, the universe dies, as far as they are concerned. I think we owe it to all human beings to not take such a precious thing away from them, no matter what.
                            So we can put you in the "anti-abortion" column?
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I think that's an accurate statement -- but the people IN POWER knew it.
                              Who?

                              Yeah, and tip our hand to give them yet ANOTHER opportunity to say "ooooops, sorry, he got away".

                              Incredibly naive.

                              Seal Team Six demonstrated quite a bit of creativity - that's why Osama is dead.
                              It would be naive if the goal was to take him out at all costs but as I said, I wouldn't have shared that.

                              You really seem to think that because he's dead, it's all settled, ended and it's okay. I really hope I'm not misrepresenting you, but I find that incredibly naive.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                                I don't believe in an afterlife, so death is, with one exception*, the worst thing that can ever happen. When someone dies, the universe dies, as far as they are concerned. I think we owe it to all human beings to not take such a precious thing away from them, no matter what**.
                                That is not quite what I asked. I asked why human life was valuable. Let me re-word your statement:

                                When a housefly dies, the universe dies, as far as it is concerned. I think we owe it to all house flies to not take such a precious thing away from them, no matter what.

                                In other words, why is the human life more valuable, or valuable in a way that the life of a house fly isn't?
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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