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Alabama Abortion Ban:

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  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Because she didn't do it; she wasn't the one who fired the gun. It sets a bad precedent to charge women who miscarry for doing things that indirectly lead to it. Strenuous exercise can lead to a miscarriage, so using the same logic, you could charge somebody for participating in sports while pregnant.
    Ah, ok I didn't read it that close. So re-reading it, the Grand Jury found that she started the fight and the other woman shot her in self-defense. And since the mother brought the baby into the fight with her, she gets the blame. That makes sense to me.

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    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Although I understand why they might have thought it made sense, I tend to think the lack of an exception for rape and incest is over the top. We have laws that allow a rapist to demand parental rights after the fact. Not so sure it makes sense to force a woman that conceived due to rape to have to endure a lifetime of continuous rape (though his exercise of control over her life and the life of the child) by that person once they get out of prison. Incest is a very odd situation to start with, but again, the lack of an exception is forcing the victim to continue to be a victim for their entire life.

      Jim
      Um, wouldn't making stricter laws about parental rights be a better solution than killing the baby?
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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      • Alabama’s de facto Religious Police persecute another black woman.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

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        • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          Alabama’s de facto Religious Police persecute another black woman.
          Have you bought into the lie as well?
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • From what I can tell, the DA in the county where this happened is a pro-choice Democrat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the prosecution of this case fall under him?

            Oh, and he's black, too. (Because firstfloor invoked race.)

            https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2...e-updates.html
            https://www.wbrc.com/2019/06/07/dann...on-procedures/
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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            • Doesn't it take two people to have a fight? Was she armed too?
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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              • Sigh... Intent follows the bullet - it doesn't matter that you intended to hurt Bob but hurt Mary instead. The intent to do harm follows the harm.

                Because had she killed or caused the death of her intended victim the charge is manslaughter (intent to harm isn't intent to kill) it is automatically manslaughter when she kills or sets in motion the death of an unintended victim, in this case, her unborn child. Yes, that can include provoking an altercation that results in harm or death.

                This is fairly well established law. It has nothing to do with abortion - you can't lawfully cause the death of someone's unborn child. And you can't claim your intent to harm another constitutes the decision to have an abortion.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

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                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                  Because had she killed or caused the death of her intended victim the charge is manslaughter (intent to harm isn't intent to kill) it is automatically manslaughter when she kills or sets in motion the death of an unintended victim, in this case, her unborn child. Yes, that can include provoking an altercation that results in harm or death.
                  I have a family member who experienced a miscarriage as a direct result of a traffic accident. Under the upcoming law, could a woman who is judged at fault in such an accident (not under the influence; just running a stop sign or something) be charged with manslaughter?
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                  • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    The law is back in the news again because a woman has been charged with manslaughter after miscarrying. She got into a gunfight and prosecutors are saying she started the fight; therefore she is responsible for the miscarriage.

                    I think charging her with manslaughter is a real stretch. However, people are going crazy saying this is due to the abortion law. One problem... the law hasn't even taken effect yet. This has literally nothing to do with the law.

                    https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ying-when-shot
                    Well, that's a rather messed up situation...

                    Now, while I think most invocations of, "Excessive Force," are baloney here in Canada (like a recent case in Manitoba where a guy was given 5 years jail time for killing a guy in self-defense), if there's anything like that in Alabama this would be a perfect time to slap the Self-Defender with them.
                    Have You Touched Grass Today? If Not, Please Do.

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                    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      I have a family member who experienced a miscarriage as a direct result of a traffic accident. Under the upcoming law, could a woman who is judged at fault in such an accident (not under the influence; just running a stop sign or something) be charged with manslaughter?
                      The upcoming law is irrelevant - the answer is no and would not change. The issue remains intent - intent to violate the law isn't intent to do harm. The issue would only arise in criminal intent - being a pregnant getaway driver for a robbery and running that stop sign is a different story than a traffic violation.

                      Basically, don't commit felonies while pregnant and this can't come up.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                      • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        From what I can tell, the DA in the county where this happened is a pro-choice Democrat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the prosecution of this case fall under him?

                        Oh, and he's black, too. (Because firstfloor invoked race.)

                        https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2...e-updates.html
                        https://www.wbrc.com/2019/06/07/dann...on-procedures/
                        Lynneice Washington may be the DA of record, not Carr. She's also black, since First cares.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Um, wouldn't making stricter laws about parental rights be a better solution than killing the baby?
                          That was one example, and of course it would be better NOT to allow a rapist ANY access - direct or indirect - to whatever child he may have fostered or the woman he raped for as long as he is alive.

                          But there are a lot of reasons I don't feel it is right to force a woman to bear the child of her rapist. That doesn't mean I don't think the best choice in the end would be for her to keep the baby assuming she is psychologically capable of doing so, or carrying the baby to term and adopting - again if she can. But to force her to do so is making her the victim of both the rape and the state.

                          This opinion of mine is also coupled to my recognition that there is a period of time early in the pregnancy when the mind does not yet exist, which I feel tips the balance in favor of the woman's choice early on in this extreme case.

                          The discussion was heated. And often became personal - so I'll not respond to anything along the lines of how horrible I am for having such an opinion, but if you are interested in discussing that opinion objectively along scientific of scriptural avenues, I'll give it a go.


                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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                          • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            I have a family member who experienced a miscarriage as a direct result of a traffic accident. Under the upcoming law, could a woman who is judged at fault in such an accident (not under the influence; just running a stop sign or something) be charged with manslaughter?
                            I think only if the person causing the accident was acting in a manner that any normal person knew was reckless and dangerous and likely to end in a wreck. Like speeding through a red light and t-boning someone. If it were a normal accident where there is really no fault then I don't think anyone can be charged with anyone else's death. I think the death of a fetus is treated just like any other person in the car in cases like this.

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                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              I think only if the person causing the accident was acting in a manner that any normal person knew was reckless and dangerous and likely to end in a wreck. Like speeding through a red light and t-boning someone. If it were a normal accident where there is really no fault then I don't think anyone can be charged with anyone else's death. I think the death of a fetus is treated just like any other person in the car in cases like this.
                              Which means our laws on this are in fact self contradictory. If a fetus is legally a person in a car accident, or in the case of the shooting, it should be considered a person wrt the abortion issue.

                              I don't understand how, if this is how the law works governing actions that cause the death of a fetus, abortion could be legal at any time during gestation when these sorts of laws apply.


                              Jim
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-28-2019, 08:53 AM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Which means our laws on this are in fact self contradictory. If a fetus is legally a person in a car accident, or in the case of the shooting, it should be considered a person wrt the abortion issue.

                                I don't understand how, if this is how the law works governing actions that cause the death of a fetus, abortion could be legal at any time during gestation when these sorts of laws apply.


                                Jim
                                correct, the law is contradictory. The fetus appears to be a person if the mother doesn't want an abortion and the fetus dies because of the actions of another person and not a person when she does want an abortion.

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