Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Alabama Abortion Ban:

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Happily, no children were killed. But you know that already, so you’re just trolling as usual.
    Considering the testimony of different nurses at abortion clinics that live babies who the mothers gave birth to after the abortion failed to do its dirty work were later killed, your claim is false even when we use your narrow definitions.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Considering the testimony of different nurses at abortion clinics that live babies who the mothers gave birth to after the abortion failed to do its dirty work were later killed, your claim is false even when we use your narrow definitions.
      This is why good sex education is needed, so that girls know when they are pregnant. It is the reason that good health care is made available so that girls get help early and free of judgment, and so that abortions are carried out safely.

      We already know that removing access to professional abortion services does not prevent abortion and therefore it is a sinful and inappropriate solution to the desire that everyone has to reduce the incidence of abortion and particularly of late term abortions.
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
        Happily, no children were killed.
        Lies. Abortion always kills a child.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          Between 1950 and 1960, the National Centre for Health Statistics has about 200 - 250 deaths per year from illegal abortions. You also have much exploitation of desperate women because they were vulnerable and acting illegally. This is very definitely a history not to be repeated.
          250 over 10 years is a whole lot less than the 10's of thousands dying in back alleys that the prochoice people pushed as a statistic and still do.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            250 over 10 years is a whole lot less than the 10's of thousands dying in back alleys that the prochoice people pushed as a statistic and still do.
            And most of those were from infections before the advent of antibiotics.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              And most of those were from infections before the advent of antibiotics.
              Yep -- and there are still deaths from LEGAL abortions even today. Mostly from hemorrhaging.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Yep -- and there are still deaths from LEGAL abortions even today. Mostly from hemorrhaging.
                And when you look at how some of these places are run but rarely investigated since Thou Shalt Not Question An Abortion Mill.
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                I've already commented on the "making them rare" aspect of the "safe, rare and legal" mantra voiced by abortion advocates so let's look at the other two parts.



                Even though abortion has been legal for 45 years a number of abortion centers have conditions strikingly similar the worst of the horror stories circulated about "back-alley" abortions. Today in the era when making abortions legal was also supposed to make them safe the facilities, like the ones in New York City, are inspected less than tanning salons and "Illinois abortion clinics hadn't been inspected for up to 15 years before the Gosnell case broke, an Associated Press investigation found."[1]

                Due to the exposing of abortionist Kermit Gosnell’s House of Horrors, which contained filthy equipment, jars of baby body parts, a freezer full of aborted children, blood-stained blankets, and "a flea-infested cat ... wandering through the facility"[2] the public has become more concerned about the conditions in these places. Similar things were taking place at centers runs by Nareshkumar "Naresh" Patel, Brian Finkel, Robert Rho, James Pendergraft IV and others. Abortion centers are being investigated for botched abortions or hazardous facilities in Alabama, New Mexico, Minnesota, Maryland, Colorado and Florida. There may be more, since abortion record-keeping is abysmal.

                According to the Philadelphia Inquirer

                Source: Problems with N.J. late-term abortion business similar to Pa.'s


                For five months last year, New Jersey regulators received complaints that abortion doctor Steven Brigham, 54, was running a secret, cash-only, late-term abortion business using a risky interstate scheme - one for which he was disciplined in the 1990s.

                Just as in the Gosnell case, regulators took no public action against Brigham - until a police raid forced them to.

                ...

                None of Brigham's six New Jersey clinics is licensed to do surgery, so, rather than lose business, he evaded the rules, prosecutors say. He initiated late-term abortions in Voorhees; the next day, he led car caravans of patients, in labor, to Elkton, Md., for surgery.

                ...

                Elizabeth Barnes, director of Cherry Hill Women's Center, a South Jersey abortion clinic, said she wrote to New Jersey's medical licensing board in June 2009 detailing her suspicions that Brigham was starting third-trimester abortions in Voorhees and finishing them in a clandestine clinic, probably in Maryland.

                In response, Barnes said, an investigator talked to her, off and on, for months. Yet no official action was taken against Brigham.

                Barnes' suspicions should have rung bells. In the 1990s, Brigham did late-term abortions that straddled Voorhees and New York City.

                In 1994, New York authorities took his license in that state for botching two abortions, one begun in Voorhees. They called him "undertrained," with "submarginal abilities" and "not the slightest recognition of his deficiencies." New Jersey prosecuted Brigham for those same cases, plus four more. But Brigham's appeals ultimately reached an administrative judge who found him "sincere" and "credible," and reinstated his license.

                ...

                On Aug. 17, police raided the Elkton clinic - a storefront operation with no sign, that had opened about a year earlier - but could not find her medical records. They did, however, find 35 late-term fetal bodies and parts, none with records.

                ...

                Although Elkton is closed, three American Women's Services clinics are open in Maryland. So are six in New Jersey, two in Virginia (where he has never had a license), and two in Pennsylvania.



                Source

                © Copyright Original Source



                An investigation into New Jersey abortion center injuries revealed that they are not being inspected, as the law required. The state has four centers that perform late-term abortions and 3 of the 4 had gone 5 years or even longer without a state health inspection.

                Here in Georgia Channel 2 WSB (owned by the same company that runs the proudly liberal Atlanta Journal-Constitution newspaper) Lori Geary, who recently stepped down as a political reporter and was also an anchor at CNN's Headline News, conducted an investigation finding that inspections of all five abortion centers in the state found numerous health violations including "Unsterilized instruments, dirty linens and expired medications"

                Source: Records: Georgia's abortion clinics face numerous inspection violations


                Geary got the inspection records for all five clinics three weeks after filing the open records request. Some of them were pages long, listing numerous violations. Those violations were for items like expired medications and medical instruments, including speculums. Others listed unsterilized equipment, sterilized and non-sterile supplies stored in the same room with a traffic cone, the vent in a biohazard room taped off with cardboard, soiled linens in surgical rooms and stirrups wrapped in duct tape. One violation was for iodine swabs to prevent wound infections that had expired 10 years ago.

                "If I was a patient at that clinic I would be horrified to know that maybe the tools they were using were not clean," said Galloway.

                Planned Parenthood runs only one of the five surgical clinics. It's located in Augusta and had 23 violations in 2011, and paid a $1,400 fine.

                In a very candid interview, the organization's CEO told Geary there was a change in leadership at the clinic, and a corrective action plan was submitted. Still, state records show, inspectors didn't visit the clinic until two years later, in March 2013.



                Source

                © Copyright Original Source



                And Planned Parenthood actually sued the state of Indiana trying to block a law that required yearly inspections. The law also required they keep and turn over information to the Department of Health detailing "abortion complications" that arose. PP complained both requirements "impose unique and burdensome obligations" on them.

                Pro-abortion activists maintain such oversight of abortion centers is "medically unnecessary" and "politically motivated" but even after Gosnell inspectors continued to find serious problems in other facilities in that state. For example, a recent unannounced state inspection of the Hillcrest Women’s Medical Center (HWMC) abortion facility in Harrisburg "determined that the facility was not in compliance with the requirements of the Pennsylvania Department of Health's Rules and Regulations for Ambulatory Care Facilities" and among other things

                Observation of the facility on August 12, 2016, revealed the facility was very warm and did not have operating air conditioning. According to Accuweather, the actual high temperature on August 12, 2016, was 96 degrees Fahrenheit. The facility did not have a thermometer inside and could not provide the room air temperature.

                An interview conducted on August 12, 2016, at 10:00 AM with EMP1 confirmed the facility did not report the loss of air conditioning, as an infrastructure failure. EMP1 further revealed that the air conditioning broke around June 17-20, 2016. EMP1 confirmed that a service technician was onsite on June 23, 2016, and July 28, 2016. The air conditioner had not been fixed as of August 12, 2016. EMP1 further stated that "I guess I should have reported it."


                So much for making abortions legal will make them safe. But will reversing Roe be detrimental to women as some have asserted?

                For decades, supporters of abortion on demand have insisted that if Roe were overturned women would be forced into "back alley" abortions which would lead to massive increase in maternal mortality.

                First the whole spiel about illegal abortions resulted in thousands of deaths each year was exposed as nothing but a lie. A deliberate lie. The pro-abortion side deliberately fabricated statistics concerning illegal abortions in order to garner support.

                Bernard Nathanson, co-founder in 1969 of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (NARAL) and one time director of New York City’s Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health (who later found God and became a very vocal Pro-Life supporter) exposed how the pro-abortion movement deliberately fabricated statistics concerning the number of deaths linked to illegal abortions in order to garner support for legalizing abortion. He confessed that he and his fellow travelers constantly fed the media the lie that 10,000 women a year died as a result of botched illegal abortion when in fact it was but a tiny fraction of that (in 1972, the year prior to Roe v. Wade, 28 deaths were reported from illegal abortions). The MSM dutifully and uncritically regurgitated these numbers.

                Now that is out of the way let's look at the facts.

                So let's turn to Chile. Why Chile you ask? While most countries in recent years have lessened legal restrictions on abortion, in contrast Chile took the opposite approach. In that country prior to 1989 abortion was largely legal, but in 1989, Chile banned all "therapeutic" abortions, thus providing us with an actual example of what can be expected when abortion is made illegal.

                A groundbreaking study of abortion in Chile published in 2012 is the first in-depth analysis of a large time series, year by year, of maternal deaths and their determinants and was led by Dr. Elard Koch[3]. The researchers found that outlawing abortion is not associated with maternal mortality and moreover it not only saved children but advanced women's health. That's right. Restrictive abortion laws were good for women’s health. At a time when access to legal abortion is often deemed as absolutely necessary for women’s health, this shatters that assumption.

                Koch and his colleagues discovered that similar to restrictions on alcohol or tobacco, restrictive abortion laws acted to dissuade. Further, they concluded that even with these restrictions, Chile has one of the lowest abortion-related maternal mortality rates in the world.

                As Koch explained in an interview:

                Source: A ground-breaking abortion study from Chile


                These data suggest that over time, restrictive laws may have a restraining effect on the practice of abortion and promote its decrease. In fact, Chile exhibits today one of the lowest abortion-related maternal deaths in the world, with a 92.3% decrease since 1989 and a 99.1% accumulated decrease over 50 years.

                Second, from the perspective of human life, especially if a developing country is looking to simultaneously protect the life of the mother and the unborn child, a plausible hypothesis after the Chilean study is that abortion restriction may be effective when is combined with adequately-implemented public policies to increase educational levels of women and to improve access to maternal health facilities. A restrictive law may discourage practice, which is suggested by the decrease of hospitalizations due to clandestine abortions estimated in Chile.



                Source

                © Copyright Original Source




                So while pro-abortion proponents repeatedly insist that abortion regulations or bans would result in a back-alley abortion surge and giving rise to an increase in deaths and serious injuries of women, the facts simply put indicate that this is not the case.

                Finally, one should bear in mind that if Roe were to be overturned it is highly doubtful that this would suddenly lead to abortions being outlawed nationwide. It would almost certainly throw it back to the states to decide on a state-by-state basis. It is inconceivable that states like California or New York would choose to make them illegal. The same could be said about other "blue" states (including those that voted for Trump in 2016) and likely for a number of "red" ones as well.

                And even in states that do opt to make them illegal, it would likely be like how it was in Ireland before they legalized abortion two months ago, where those wanting one simply took a day trip over to Great Britain in order to get one. The same with Poland which still has tight restrictions on abortion. As the Guardian noted matter-of-factly, "Polish women seeking abortions typically go to Germany or other neighbouring countries or order abortion pills online."








                1. Illinois Abortion Clinics Inspected an Average of Once Every 9 Years with 40% of licensed centers going between 14 and 17 years without inspections. Moreover, the state health department doesn't regulate Planned Parenthood but rather under Illinois law, they are regulated by the Illinois Department of Professional and Financial Regulation

                2. And, according to the Grand Jury report investigating him

                ..this business was a filthy fraud in which he overdosed his patients with dangerous drugs, spread venereal disease among them with infected instruments, perforated their wombs and bowels – and, on at least two occasions, caused their deaths. Over the years, many people came to know that something was going on here.

                But no one put a stop to it.


                In cases where the baby was born alive after Gosnell tried to abort it he stuck scissors into the back of their necks to cut their spinal cords (which he called "ensuring fetal demise)," and at least once making a joke of it.

                In the end Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of 3 of infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar, a patient. He was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion, and 211 counts of violating the 24-hour informed consent law.

                3. An epidemiologist with the Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Medicine at the University of Chile in Santiago as well as the Institute of Molecular Epidemiology (MELISA) and Center of Embryonic Medicine and Maternal Health, Faculty of Medicine, Universidad Católica de la Santísima Concepción, Concepción, Chile

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Lies. Abortion always kills a child.
                  This is not just a disagreement about the meaning of ‘child’ but a sinful obfuscation on your part.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    This is not just a disagreement about the meaning of ‘child’ but a sinful obfuscation on your part.
                    Sinful? According to whom? Or what?
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Sinful? According to whom? Or what?
                      Oh dear; I suspect you wish to appeal to your higher authority to overrule my authority. I reserve the right to classify sins to the extent that they impinge on my personal happiness. Fair?
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Oh dear; I suspect you wish to appeal to your higher authority to overrule my authority. I reserve the right to classify sins to the extent that they impinge on my personal happiness. Fair?
                        Not the least bit surprising.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Not the least bit surprising.
                          It should not surprise you either that I am very good at divining sin, who is right, and who is wrong and why. But I do find it difficult to persuade those who are wrong, that they are wrong. Not everyone wants to be enlightened, I suppose.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            It should not surprise you either that I am very good at divining sin, who is right, and who is wrong and why. But I do find it difficult to persuade those who are wrong, that they are wrong. Not everyone wants to be enlightened, I suppose.
                            My redheaded daughter has a favorite T-shirt that says "I'm not Bossy - I just know what everybody else should be doing".
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              My redheaded daughter has a favorite T-shirt that says "I'm not Bossy - I just know what everybody else should be doing".

                              That deserves a song. It is well known hereabouts and was sung by the whole audience at the theatre.

                              When I was a lad, a tiny wee lad,
                              My mother said to me,
                              Come see the Northern Lights my boy,
                              They're bright as they can be.
                              She called them the heavenly dancers,
                              Merry dancers in the sky,
                              I'll never forget that wonderful sight,
                              They made the heavens bright.

                              Chorus

                              The Northern Lights of Old Aberdeen
                              Mean Home Sweet Home to me.
                              The Northern Lights of Old Aberdeen
                              Are what I long to see.
                              I've been a wand'rer all of my life
                              And many a sight I've seen,
                              God speed the day when I'm on my way
                              To my home in Aberdeen.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment


                              • Speaking of songs, Steve Taylor's "Bad Rap" is appropriate for this thread:

                                You save the whales
                                You save the seals
                                You save whatever's cute and squeals
                                But you kill that thing that's in the womb
                                Would not want no baby boom
                                Good, bad, laugh and scorn
                                Blame yourself for kiddo porn
                                Convenience is the law you keep
                                And your compassion's ankle deep!

                                (Who you tryin' to kid, kid?)
                                Wrap it in a fine philosphy
                                (Who you tryin' to kid, kid?)
                                But your bottom line still says, "Me! Me! Me!"
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Esther, Today, 12:09 PM
                                27 responses
                                146 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post mossrose  
                                Started by Gondwanaland, Yesterday, 01:42 PM
                                49 responses
                                254 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post mossrose  
                                Started by Ronson, Yesterday, 11:16 AM
                                11 responses
                                89 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Juvenal, Yesterday, 04:13 AM
                                14 responses
                                68 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Terraceth  
                                Started by shunyadragon, 11-24-2020, 06:20 PM
                                22 responses
                                139 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Working...
                                X