Alabama Abortion Ban:

[Cow Poke]

I have no idea where you would get that impression. No one here has said anything remotely resembling that. I am all for supporting crisis pregnancy centers which supply as much support as the expectant woman is willing to take. I am all for putting the baby up for adoption once it is born. I am all for forcing the rapist to make child support payments regardless if the baby is kept or put up for adoption.

Our local pregnancy center does just that, and gets very broad support in our community.

[Cow Poke]

I've seen--in this thread and elsewhere--numerous people talk about the support they'd be willing to give. These claims that the pro-lifers are making her do it on her own or putting the full burden on her are flat-out dishonest.

If a rape victim needed help, I'd offer money (as much as I can). I'd even--although there would be logistical issues, of course--offer housing, food, diapers, you name it.

I already clicked the amen function --- but... AMEN!

[Zymologist]

Our local pregnancy center does just that, and gets very broad support in our community.

Wow, that's a lot of people who lack empathy.

[Cow Poke]

Wow, that's a lot of people who lack empathy.

In our network of pregnancy centers (5 just in our group) we have had private sponsors donate brand new mammogram machines*, sonogram equipment, hospital supplies - and the community regularly donates baby food, diapers, strollers, car seats, toys, teddy bears, gas cards... we have medical doctors and legal people do tons of pro bono work... we even have volunteers who will sit in the play room at the clinic with the children of women who are their for their appointments, so the "client" can focus on what the medical team is doing/saying...


*to do the mammograms Planned Parenthood claims they do without mammogram machines

[tabibito]

In our network of pregnancy centers (5 just in our group) we have had private sponsors donate brand new mammogram machines*, sonogram equipment, hospital supplies - and the community regularly donates baby food, diapers, strollers, car seats, toys, teddy bears, gas cards... we have medical doctors and legal people do tons of pro bono work... we even have volunteers who will sit in the play room at the clinic with the children of women who are their for their appointments, so the "client" can focus on what the medical team is doing/saying...


*to do the mammograms Planned Parenthood claims they do without mammogram machines

like Zymologist said: "Wow, that's a lot of people who lack empathy. "

[oxmixmudd]

you keep avoiding the point I made earlier that the same circumstances can occur with women who were not raped and don't want to be pregnant. Yet you said earlier that because the pregnancy was due to consensual sex, they should have to bear the burden. Even if they claim they are suicidal?

I answered you sparko - already. Go search for "Everest". Read that post again. I'm not going to repeat myself just so you can claim I'm ignoring you again. If you have any questions or believe my answer is in error, please reply to that post.

Jim

[Sparko]

The local churches in this area have banded together to create several of these types of crisis pregnancy centers, several which are set up right next to planned parenthood clinics (some of which closed down because of it!)

They are very well funded with 3d sonograms, mammogram machines, and other equipment. Staffed with professionals: Doctors, nurses, counselors. They offer financial aid also during and after the pregnancy. Assist with adoptions.

[Bill the Cat]

There you go with that avatar thing again.

Jim

And your responses have about as much self-reflection as yours...

[Cow Poke]

The local churches in this area have banded together to create several of these types of crisis pregnancy centers, several which are set up right next to planned parenthood clinics (some of which closed down because of it!)

We turned out Planned Parenthood abortion clinic INTO a Christian Women's Service Center. Where they used to kill babies, now they support moms AND babies!

[Sparko]

Nope.

The women who has consensual sex is consenting to the potential hardship that is the consequence of her choice.

The raped women is not.

Consider:

I can choose to climb Mount Everest and if I die, that is my choice.

If I force someone to climb Mount Everest and they die, I am a murderer.


You can't take the moral responsibility to own the consequences of ones own choices and say that means someone forced to do the same thing also has to own the consequences. I am not responsible for the consequences of something you force me to do. You are.


Therefore, allowing rape as an exception clause for a ban on abortions does not in any way apply the reasons that exception clause might exist to any manner of consensual sex that produces a pregnancy. The raped women is victim and is not responsible to accept the consequences of the rapists actions. The women that had consensual sex is not a victim and through her own choice is pregnant and thus must accept the consequences of her own actions.


Jim

That is a terrible analogy.

We are talking about suicidal women, not mountain climbers.

In both cases you have a woman who is threatening to kill herself if she can't have an abortion. In both cases if she does, both her and the baby die.

Yet in the case of consensual sex, you are willing to let her commit suicide rather than let her have an abortion, but in the case of rape, you are willing to let her have the abortion instead of killing herself and the baby.

IF you didn't know the circumstances of the pregnancy you would not know which woman was which. So it isn't about the woman threatening suicide or the risk that both could die. It is all about HOW she got pregnant.

Where's YOUR empathy?

[tabibito]

We turned out Planned Parenthood abortion clinic INTO a Christian Women's Service Center. Where they used to kill babies, now they support moms AND babies!

You must be swamped with approving media reporters wanting to show how great a job can be done and encouraging other groups to follow suit.

[Cow Poke]

You must be swamped with approving media reporters wanting to show how great a job can be done and encouraging other groups to follow suit.

Ummmm.... lemme check. I'll get back to you on that.

[oxmixmudd]

You realize you're arguing from a hypothetical here, right? You don't know if she would have been better off if she'd had the baby. I know for certain that the baby would be better off.

You're not paying attention to what I'm saying, Jim. Let me say it again, in larger letters. Abortion itself is a traumatic experience. If she's that likely to kill herself, abortion is exceedingly unlikely to make matters better for her mental state.

It had the opposite effect for the women I quoted above. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience. And finding out one is pregnant is an extremely traumatic experience. That force state of being pregnant is going to upend this persons life forever, whether she adopts or keeps the baby. So it is not a given that stopping the pregnancy is the worst possible option - which is how you are treating it. Sometimes it is not. It's all bad. But what is the best option for a given person is NOT something you or I can decide.

Again, this is not about abortion on demand. This is a special case where the women is in a very fragile and difficult place and the state (Alabama) wants to force a specific outcome when it is demonstrably false that outcome is always the best outcome. Further, there - again - is the very real possibility that the Trauma of the rape and discovering one is pregnant will threaten the life of the mother. In that case, abortion is justified just as it is in ANY case where the life of the mother is threatened. Removing the exception for Rape denies the very real possibility the rape and the pregnancy can represent a threat to the life of the mother outside the purely physical effect. And that diminishes and denies empathy for the women that finds herself in that state of being after the rape.

Jim

[Bill the Cat]

Case in point - I quote the rape victim that suffered PTSD and deep depression to the point of the possibility of suicide - MM BLAMES HER, SAYS SHE MUST HAVE MADE IT UP!

People with PTSD never really get over it, no matter what other actions they take. Aborting the baby will not "un-rape" her. It just creates another victim of the initial crime.

[Bill the Cat]

It had the opposite effect for the women I quoted above. Rape is an extremely traumatic experience. And finding out one is pregnant is an extremely traumatic experience. That force state of being pregnant is going to upend this persons life forever, whether she adopts or keeps the baby. So it is not a given that stopping the pregnancy is the worst possible option - which is how you are treating it. Sometimes it is not. It's all bad. But what is the best option for a given person is NOT something you or I can decide.

Again, this is not about abortion on demand. This is a special case where the women is in a very fragile and difficult place and the state (Alabama) wants to force a specific outcome when it is demonstrably false that outcome is always the best outcome. Further, there - again - is the very real possibility that the Trauma of the rape and discovering one is pregnant will threaten the life of the mother. In that case, abortion is justified just as it is in ANY case where the life of the mother is threatened. Removing the exception for Rape denies the very real possibility the rape and the pregnancy can represent a threat to the life of the mother outside the purely physical effect. And that diminishes and denies empathy for the women that finds herself in that state of being after the rape.

Jim

If the mother is in a life-threatening position, she can be committed, as most suicide risks can be, and that will eliminate the killing of another human.