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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    See Adrift? He didn't read a damn thing you said.
    Yeah, I understand he isn't inclined to accept the Judeo-Christian conception of a nation being sanctified for the Messiah, the Holy Spirit, and living under a new administration of grace, but I was hoping against hope that he would have at least acknowledged that cultural norms for law-breakers living within a collectivist society in the Ancient Near East some 3,000 years ago would be radically different than cultural norms in our modern West. I don't know if it's simply a lack of imagination, or just a general hate for anything to do with Christianity that prevents the scales from dropping off of people's eyes on subjects like this. I feel like if you could grab some of these people by the hand, put them in a time machine, and then have them live within these societies for a time they'd finally come to an "oooooh, I get it now" point, but maybe not. I imagine if you take that same time machine into the future a few hundred years, many of our more progressive norms would come across as taboo. What's ironic to me is that the skeptical reaction to punishments in the Old Testament is a direct result of 2 thousand years of Christianity's influence on the concept of human sanctity. It's unlikely that JimL would hold the views he holds about the commands of the Old Testament if it weren't for the commands of the Old Testament.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    JimL, where did he say God told them to burn anyone to death? Still waiting on a cite from you.
    There are passages that mention burning to death, but they're not connected to either dishonoring one's parents or homosexuality, which was the point JimL seemed to be making. Old Testament scholar Dr. John Hartley offers an interesting insight into the subject of burning by fire as a punishment,

    Source: Leviticus, Volume 4, Dr. John Hartley

    This punishment, though, may not be in place of stoning but in addition to it, i.e., burning the corpse (cf. Josh 7:15, 25; Lev 21:9; Judg 14:15; 15:6; Gen 38:24). "Burning" deprived these offenders of a proper burial and thus increased significantly their punishment in the eyes of ancient man. It also cleansed the land from the defilement of such זמה , "a lewd act" (cf. 18:17; Hoffmann, 2:71-73). Burning as a form of punishment may go back to God's use of this means to put to death those who dared to enter the sanctuary with something foreign or those who brazenly challenged his purpose (e.g., 10:12; Num 16:35).

    © Copyright Original Source



    So, a good example of this is, as mentioned above, Joshua 7:15/25.

    Scripture Verse: Joshua 7:15

    Whoever is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him. He has violated the covenant of the Lord and has done an outrageous thing in Israel!

    © Copyright Original Source



    It turns out that an Israelite named Achan and his family were caught with some of these devoted things that they had stolen, and buried within their tent, and here is how they were punished,

    Scripture Verse: Joshua 7:25

    Joshua said, “Why have you brought this trouble on us? The Lord will bring trouble on you today.” Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Yeah I allowed for that, but it is not that clearly written. But the surrounding verses are about being put to death.

      another commentary says:


      It is to be understood, that, whenever mention is made that the offender was "to be put to death" without describing the mode, stoning is meant. The only instance of another form of capital punishment occurs in Lev 20:14, that of being burnt with fire; and yet it is probable that even here death was first inflicted by stoning, and the body of the criminal afterwards consumed by fire ( Jos 7:15 ).
      Jamieson, Fausset & Brown :: Commentary on Leviticus 20
      Ah, looks like you already knew the contextual reference that some commentarians suggest existed. I didn't read far enough into the thread before replying.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Yeah, I understand he isn't inclined to accept the Judeo-Christian conception of a nation being sanctified for the Messiah, the Holy Spirit, and living under a new administration of grace, but I was hoping against hope that he would have at least acknowledged that cultural norms for law-breakers living within a collectivist society in the Ancient Near East some 3,000 years ago would be radically different than cultural norms in our modern West. I don't know if it's simply a lack of imagination, or just a general hate for anything to do with Christianity that prevents the scales from dropping off of people's eyes on subjects like this. I feel like if you could grab some of these people by the hand, put them in a time machine, and then have them live within these societies for a time they'd finally come to an "oooooh, I get it now" point, but maybe not. I imagine if you take that same time machine into the future a few hundred years, many of our more progressive norms would come across as taboo. What's ironic to me is that the skeptical reaction to punishments in the Old Testament is a direct result of 2 thousand years of Christianity's influence on the concept of human sanctity. It's unlikely that JimL would hold the views he holds about the commands of the Old Testament if it weren't for the commands of the Old Testament.
        That's a very good point.

        There are passages that mention burning to death, but they're not connected to either dishonoring one's parents or homosexuality, which was the point JimL seemed to be making. Old Testament scholar Dr. John Hartley offers an interesting insight into the subject of burning by fire as a punishment,

        Source: Leviticus, Volume 4, Dr. John Hartley

        This punishment, though, may not be in place of stoning but in addition to it, i.e., burning the corpse (cf. Josh 7:15, 25; Lev 21:9; Judg 14:15; 15:6; Gen 38:24). "Burning" deprived these offenders of a proper burial and thus increased significantly their punishment in the eyes of ancient man. It also cleansed the land from the defilement of such זמה , "a lewd act" (cf. 18:17; Hoffmann, 2:71-73). Burning as a form of punishment may go back to God's use of this means to put to death those who dared to enter the sanctuary with something foreign or those who brazenly challenged his purpose (e.g., 10:12; Num 16:35).

        © Copyright Original Source



        So, a good example of this is, as mentioned above, Joshua 7:15/25.

        Scripture Verse: Joshua 7:15

        Whoever is caught with the devoted things shall be destroyed by fire, along with all that belongs to him. He has violated the covenant of the Lord and has done an outrageous thing in Israel!

        © Copyright Original Source



        It turns out that an Israelite named Achan and his family were caught with some of these devoted things that they had stolen, and buried within their tent, and here is how they were punished,

        Scripture Verse: Joshua 7:25

        Joshua said, “Why have you brought this trouble on us? The Lord will bring trouble on you today.” Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.

        © Copyright Original Source

        Jim must have finally looked it up because he came up with Lev 20:14. That was what I was trying to get him to do all along. Instead of just repeating talking points from some skeptic site. Although knowing Jim, he probably found that verse on a skeptic site too. I just want JimL to actually read the bible some time. Get his information from the source itself.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Jim must have finally looked it up because he came up with Lev 20:14.
          You misquoted him, you wretched pirate - He actually came up with the very skollerie "Duh! Leviticus 20:14"
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            That's a very good point.



            Jim must have finally looked it up because he came up with Lev 20:14. That was what I was trying to get him to do all along. Instead of just repeating talking points from some skeptic site. Although knowing Jim, he probably found that verse on a skeptic site too. I just want JimL to actually read the bible some time. Get his information from the source itself.
            I wouldn't be surprised if some skeptics keep a link open to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible when engaging with Christians. Burning people by fire has its own section in the SAB, so it makes sense that it's a hot topic for them.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I wouldn't be surprised if some skeptics keep a link open to the Skeptic's Annotated Bible when engaging with Christians. Burning people by fire has its own section in the SAB, so it makes sense that it's a hot topic for them.
              Seems it would be a Bible worth taking a squiz - I'll have a look right away.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Seems it would be a Bible worth taking a squiz - I'll have a look right away.
                Be prepared for permanent eye-rolling as you read through it. The lengths it goes to to read passages out of context (sometimes within the same verse) are extraordinary. I can't imagine anyone reading it with a straight face. I suppose if you have a big enough chip on your shoulder, you can roll with anything though.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Be prepared for permanent eye-rolling as you read through it. The lengths it goes to to read passages out of context (sometimes within the same verse) are extraordinary. I can't imagine anyone reading it with a straight face. I suppose if you have a big enough chip on your shoulder, you can roll with anything though.
                  So far it looks very nice. "The lengths it goes to to read passages out of context (sometimes within the same verse) are extraordinary" would not be much different from what comes out of some professors in some highly respected theological colleges - that's something I have become used to these past three years.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    So far it looks very nice. "The lengths it goes to to read passages out of context (sometimes within the same verse) are extraordinary" would not be much different from what comes out of some professors in some highly respected theological colleges - that's something I have become used to these past three years.
                    Firefox won't even let me go there.

                    ScreenHunter_.jpg

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      So far it looks very nice. "The lengths it goes to to read passages out of context (sometimes within the same verse) are extraordinary" would not be much different from what comes out of some professors in some highly respected theological colleges - that's something I have become used to these past three years.
                      I don't agree at all. But if you say so.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I don't agree at all. But if you say so.
                        One example (a real howler).
                        Were you aware that the Bible shows two different authors producing conflicts in the record of Joseph being saved from death at the hands of his brothers, one author saying that Reuben saved him, and the other that Judah saved him? (Gen 37:21-27)
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          One example (a real howler).
                          Were you aware that the Bible shows two different authors producing conflicts in the record of Joseph being saved from death at the hands of his brothers, one author saying that Reuben saved him, and the other that Judah saved him? (Gen 37:21-27)
                          Sounds like standard Documentary Hypothesis stuff, which has gone through quite a bit of reassessment as of late. While OT scholars still suggest late editing, mixed authorship, and late dates, they seem to be moving away from the traditional JEDP standard. Books like Richard Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible? is considered outdated now. As wrong as I believe the Documentary Hypothesis is, at least there was a rationale behind it. A ton of the SAB's material is simple mockery, forced contradictions, lack of contextualization, bewildering misunderstandings of simple metaphors and figures of speech, etc. That you can skim any particular page from the SAB, and claim "So far it looks very nice" makes me think you either didn't look very closely, or you have a very different standard for "nice" than I do. As I recall, you do have a relatively low reading of scripture, but it shouldn't be that low. The SAB is pure garbage.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Buttigieg's decision to live in sin, as you have yet to produce anything at all to show that he was "interpreting scripture" in any way to justify his rebellion against God. He doesn't "interpret" scripture - he IGNORES it.
                            YOU think Buttigieg lives in sin, Buttigieg does NOT think he lives in sin but according to how God made him. Both of you practice a scripture-based religion and the understanding of scripture has varied enormously over the years…from justifying slavery to denying the emancipation of women etc. Historically, scripture has been understood according to the social mores of the day…including nowadays, the acceptance of homosexuality as an acceptable form of human bonding.

                            You think that Buttigieg “ignores” scripture, whereas he believes he is living according to its precepts as understood in today’s society.

                            It is not for me to make judgement about who has got it right, I’ll leave the judging to “freakin' little minds” like yours, Reverend CP. But I will say that Buttigieg's understanding of the bible seems to be more loving and tolerant than your punitive approach…more Christlike.
                            Last edited by Tassman; 05-17-2019, 11:43 PM.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Low level reading of scripture doesn't result in consistent HDs for exegetical papers submitted - one only exception (papers for other branches of Theology can go anywhere). [ad hominem addressed]

                              The example I gave was drawn from a peer reviewed book cited as authoritative in a recent doctoral thesis and providing that same quote. I checked the book because I couldn't believe that the author would have been so thoroughly mistaken.

                              Garbage the SAB is - but it is "nice" from the point of view of providing a ready reference for garbage to be sifted through.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 05-17-2019, 11:40 PM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                YOU think Buttigieg lives in sin, Buttigieg does NOT think he lives in sin but according to how God made him.
                                That's like saying that the adulterer or fornicator isn't living in sin because it's how God made them. The idea is to try to resist our various temptations not to rationalize them or worse claim that God approves of it.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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