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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    So what? He didn't say anything about rape either, and loving others? You mean the parts about sending people to hell?
    But he said a lot about loving others. This would exclude "rape"...or any sexual behavior towards others without informed consent.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post


      The Greek word that He used that is translated "fornications" (plural) [porneia / πορνεύω (G4203)] could also included homosexuality and lesbianism.
      Nobody is advocating promiscuity and fornication for those of any sexual orientation.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        So, he can question Pence's Christianity, but his own is off the table? That's not how this works.
        Bur, what’s “in question” is not my argument. The argument is merely that practicing Christians disagree among themselves as to what is acceptable behavior for Christians.

        Ah, so you've gone back to THAT steaming load of crap again! At LEAST you're not longer lying about it being "The SBC". You are a slippery one!

        You say "many Southern US Baptists", (that's not how one would reference "the Southern Baptists") then you specifically refer to the official Resolution made by the Southern Baptists at our annual meeting.
        Two whole paragraphs to completely ignore the point that many US Baptists justified slavery with quotes from scripture until the practice of slavery became socially intolerable, at which point it was denounced. The same situation has applied regarding many social issues. Scriptural understanding has altered according the the acceptable social values of the day.

        Buttigieg hasn't offered any "interpretation" of the scriptures regarding homosexuality -- he merely IGNORES them as if they don't exist.
        You choose to believe that Buttigieg ignores scripture regarding homosexuality whereas I’m not making a judgement at all. I’ll leave the judging to you Christians. I’m merely making the point that he, and the majority of US Christians, are just as entitled to their opinion about the place of homosexuality as Christians as you are.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          If anyone were ever "forced" to participate in a homosexual lifestyle, I would be right beside you defending your right not to. I would be doing the same thing if anyone were "forcing" you to participate in a black lifestyle, or female lifestyle, Muslim lifestyle, or any other lifestyle you don't want to make part of your own. The line gets drawn when this is turned into "I'm going to deny rights/services to others who practice that lifestyle."



          Then we disagree. If someone wants to promote a prejudicial/discriminatory position in public, they should expect a reaction from those of us who do not want that kind of thing in our public lives. As I said, if a wedding magazine decides not to include black couples and says so publicly, few of us would have a problem with calling them on their racism and even advocating for advertisers to go elsewhere. The situation is no different with the LGBTQ community.



          Their refusal to include a segment of our population for prejudicial/discriminatory reasons is what got them targeted, and justifiably, IMO.



          We all have people we don't want to see around. The loud mouth. The glory hog. The chronic liar. Everyone has a right to choose who they want in their home. The leaders of this website have every right to determine who they do and do not want on their forum. Facebook has every right to set the bound on who can post on their servers. "It's a free country" does not mean anyone can do anything in anyone else's space. If you decide you do not want black people, gay people, or women to be in your home - that would be your right to do so.

          However, if someone goes beyond that to suggest that people have a right to bring these bigoted views and into the public sphere with impunity - on that we disagree. A black man should be able to get food from a business that serves food. A woman should be able to get employment from a business that hires people (assuming she can do the job and is the best qualified). A gay person should be able to buy a cake from a business that sells cakes. And those businesses that refuse to treat people without prejudice and discrimination are justifiably targeted by the market and (when possible) by our laws and civil practices.

          We're not going to agree on this Tab. I'm not expecting to. I realize the cards are stacked against me here, because it is the prevailing view here that people are justified in limiting the freedoms, rights, and experiences of the LGBTQ community in a way they would not do for black people, women, or Jews. I reject that justification. I always will. I will always speak against it.
          Bottom Line: you find it acceptable to deprive people of the right to live in peace if they FAIL TO ENDORSE world-views that you approve.

          So did Mao, Stalin, Amin, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and a host of others.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Bur, what’s “in question” is not my argument. The argument is merely that practicing Christians disagree among themselves as to what is acceptable behavior for Christians.
            Absolutely SHOCKING! On the other hand, Buttigieg just absolutely ignores scripture that clearly condemns his lifestyle.

            Two whole paragraphs to completely ignore the point that many US Baptists justified slavery with quotes from scripture until the practice of slavery became socially intolerable, at which point it was denounced. The same situation has applied regarding many social issues. Scriptural understanding has altered according the the acceptable social values of the day.
            Which has nothing to do with the fact that Buttigieg totally IGNORES scripture in order to justify his decision to live in sin.

            You choose to believe that Buttigieg ignores scripture regarding homosexuality whereas I’m not making a judgement at all.
            I don't "choose to believe it" --- it's a fact.

            I’ll leave the judging to you Christians.
            Says the incredibly judgmental anti-Christian bigot.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              But he said a lot about loving others. This would exclude "rape"...or any sexual behavior towards others without informed consent.
              It is amazing how well you pretend to know this Jesus you don't believe exists. Paul the apostle is an authorized spokesperson for Jesus Christ. You, on the other hand, are an anti-Christian bigot who has to totally ignore the words of Paul, and appeal to a phony version of Christ that you create in your head.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                But he said a lot about loving others. This would exclude "rape"...or any sexual behavior towards others without informed consent.
                Jesus never dismissed sin on the basis of "informed consent" - that shows your profound ignorance of the teachings of Jesus. The woman caught in adultery had obviously engaged in "informed consent", and Jesus told her to go and sin no more.

                When Jesus spoke against divorce, He said "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Adultery involves parties involved in "informed consent" and was, indeed, fornication. Fornication is generally consensual sexual intercourse between two people not married to each other. When one of the partners to consensual sexual intercourse is a married person, it may be described as adultery.

                You really need to surrender your online minister's license, Reverend Tassman.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Absolutely SHOCKING! On the other hand, Buttigieg just absolutely ignores scripture that clearly condemns his lifestyle.
                  I would assume that Buttigieg views scripture differently from those who want to condemn homosexuality, just as South Africa viewed scripture (under the auspices of the Dutch Reformed Church) to proclaim the Immorality Act that condemned mixing the races. Scripture has been very handy in validating personal prejudices.

                  Which has nothing to do with the fact that Buttigieg totally IGNORES scripture in order to justify his decision to live in sin.
                  He would disagree.

                  I don't "choose to believe it" --- it's a fact.
                  Others disagree.

                  Says the incredibly judgmental anti-Christian bigot.
                  It’s not I doing the judging here, possum.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    It is amazing how well you pretend to know this Jesus you don't believe exists.
                    I think a Jesus figure probably existed, i.e. a charismatic, itinerant preacher. Not the wonder-working god/man of legend, of course.

                    Paul the apostle is an authorized spokesperson for Jesus Christ.
                    Authorized by whom? He probably never even met Jesus Christ.

                    You, on the other hand, are an anti-Christian bigot who has to totally ignore the words of Paul, and appeal to a phony version of Christ that you create in your head.
                    I’m not appealing to any version of Christ. But many practicing Christians seem able to accept a more inclusive and loving Jesus than the one you worship.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Jesus never dismissed sin on the basis of "informed consent"
                      I was responding to seer’s “He [Jesus] didn't say anything about rape either”. But he did say a lot about loving others and, whichever way you look at it, rape can never be described as "loving". .
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Bottom Line: you find it acceptable to deprive people of the right to live in peace if they FAIL TO ENDORSE world-views that you approve.
                        Bottom line, I find it unacceptable to deprive perfectly good people the right to live in peace and share in common rights because they are a member of an disapproved-of group.

                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        So did Mao, Stalin, Amin, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and a host of others.
                        Actually, I think you might better compare the message to that of these people, not to mention voices like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr., John Lewis, and Rosa Parks.

                        Meanwhile, those who stood against others because of their membership in a group include such voices as Adolph Hitler, David Duke, Richard Spencer, George Wallace (though he later recanted) and so many others.

                        A smart young lady once said, "Race doesn't really exist for you because it has never been a barrier. Black folks don't have that choice.” - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Americanah

                        The same is true of the LGBTQ community. Your (presumed) heterosexuality is not an issue for you, because it has never been a barrier. The LGBTQ community does not have that choice.

                        Meanwhile - CP is right and this is hijacking the thread. I will leave the last word to (all of) you. If you wish to continue the discussion, I suggest someone start a separate thread for that purpose and I will be happy to engage.
                        Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-14-2019, 06:25 AM.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Not a canard - my opinion, as an educator. You don't have to agree. I don't think people should be allowed to opt out from a required class for prejudicial/discriminatory reasons.
                          Carp, your slippery argument is bunk, and they mostly opt out because of religious reasons. But again, it is your side try to force their beliefs on others.


                          Nobody is "forcing" anyone, AFAICT.
                          Of course they are, as my recent link showed.


                          Religious beliefs are not equated with racism, Seer. Religious beliefs have been used by some to defend racism, and now (and for many centuries) are being used to defend discrimination against the LGBTQ community. Neither is acceptable.
                          Why isn't acceptable in your relative world where no moral position is objectively better than its opposite? Where unalienable rights don't exist. Forgive me if a find your moral opinion without merit.


                          No one is forcing anyone to any labor. What is being set are the bounds in which labor is conducted. This is a canard.
                          What bounds are set? Who set them? And yes the baker is being forced or fined out of business.


                          The oppressor is ever the "victim." Sorry, Seer - I have no sympathy for you or those who think like you with respect to this issue. Abandon discriminatory positions and you won't find a problem. Persist in them and expect to be called out for it.
                          You are a complete hypocrite Carp, you seek to marginalize, by your own words, those who disagree with your personal opinion about what is acceptable or not. While attacking us for trying to marginalize.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Carp, your slippery argument is bunk, and they mostly opt out because of religious reasons. But again, it is your side try to force their beliefs on others.

                            Of course they are, as my recent link showed.

                            Why isn't acceptable in your relative world where no moral position is objectively better than its opposite? Where unalienable rights don't exist. Forgive me if a find your moral opinion without merit.

                            What bounds are set? Who set them? And yes the baker is being forced or fined out of business.

                            You are a complete hypocrite Carp, you seek to marginalize, by your own words, those who disagree with your personal opinion about what is acceptable or not. While attacking us for trying to marginalize.
                            As I noted to Tab, I'm done hijacking the thread with this topic. If you want a response, start a thread devoted to this topic and I'll be happy to engage. Otherwise, I've addressed all of this already and I'll let those responses stand.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              But he said a lot about loving others. This would exclude "rape"...or any sexual behavior towards others without informed consent.
                              By that logic he spoke out against homosexuality because he said marriage was between a man and a woman, and also spoke out against adultery (sex outside of marriage)

                              He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." Matthew 19:4-6

                              Matthew 5:27-30
                              “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                I would assume
                                That's your biggest problem, and accounts for most of your posting.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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