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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Faultless! Righteous! CP!
    Stupid! Dummy! Jimmy!
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      Cp - we all have to be very cautious with words like that.
      I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and I am a believer in His Word. Sin is sin, and needs to be called that.

      Its fine to point out you think those things are wrong, absolutely right to ask if a christian can be for those things. But none if us can look at another and say -"hey, I'm not as bad as him" in a sense that we are justified and they are not. In fact, i think when we do that we end up on the opposite side of where we are declaring ourselves to be.
      When somebody gets "married" to a person of the same sex, Jim, it's pretty clear they have made a choice to continue in sin.

      But not because of what you did or didn't do - right?
      My Faith is built on nothing less than Jesus Blood and Righteousness.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        Jim - CP doesnt base his confidence on what he has done. It is based on what Christ has done and the free gift given. It's like being confident your mom will have dinner for you when you get home. You didn't earn it, and you are not being boastful about yourself by telling someone dinner is waiting for you when you get home, but dinner will be there waiting for you nonetheless, because you are her son, and she is your mom.

        Jim
        Amen.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          While at the same time giving despots that slaughter their own people and engage in unspeakable persecution of Christians opportunities for photo ops and creating border policies that are killing children there.

          It's a very, very mixed bag CP where for many the bad far outweighs the good.

          Jim
          Trump will stand before the Lord one day and answer for his own deeds.

          Clarence
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            For a long time I used to think God would necessarily open the eyes of such a person if they were truly seeking him. But what I've come to realize over the years is that just isn't the case at all. Sometimes people never catch on to their sin but they still are following Christ as best they can. What does God do with people like that? Aren't we ALL to one extent or another people like that? So don't we hope it's God's mercy that wins here rather than God's judgement? Isn't that what CP's profession that he fully trusted in Christ to welcome him into heaven means? It doesn't mean CP does everything he believes is right and because of that Jesus will welcome him. It doesn't mean everything CP believes is right IS right an THAT is why Jesus will welcome him. But it does mean that Christ's work is sufficient in spite of where and how CP doesn't measure up and that Christs work on the cross cover's CP's sin - known and unknown, willful and accidental.


            Jim
            Jim, Buttigieg, and increasingly, other Democrats, are beginning to wrap themselves in "faith" to advance their political agenda, which includes the slaughter of the innocents and the "pride" in sexual immorality. They are perverting the Truth into a lie, and as such, they 'preaching another Gospel', which Paul very clearly condemns. They have clearly stated that they are "taking back faith" as an issue for the Democrat Party.

            Marvin
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Jim, Buttigieg, and increasingly, other Democrats, are beginning to wrap themselves in "faith" to advance their political agenda, which includes the slaughter of the innocents and the "pride" in sexual immorality. They are perverting the Truth into a lie, and as such, they 'preaching another Gospel', which Paul very clearly condemns. They have clearly stated that they are "taking back faith" as an issue for the Democrat Party.

              Marvin
              I don't think so. That's kind of a massively paranoid way of looking at this. I think it is simpler and far less political than that.

              There are a lot of gay people that have faith and they want to find a way of integrating the two. And there are a lot of Christians and Christian denominations that have decided that what has been learned about why people are gay puts them in a position of feeling they need to accommodate them without demanding they change. And that along with a recognition of gay marriage culturally and in those churches has produced an environment where people are naturally becoming comfortable with expressing traditional Christian faith as gay people. And I think Buttigieg is just a natural consequence of those trends. That is why I do not doubt his sincerity, or his own personal conviction that he is a practicing Christian within the Episcopal Church.

              You saw from the links posted from the diocese that he and his husband are fully recognized by that local church body and its government.

              And I think this is how things are going. One thing you need to consider and seriously pray about is what are you going to do when a married gay couple with children shows up at your church looking for a place to worship and fellowship. It's going to happen.

              And there is another thing to consider. Many of the youth of this country are not growing up thinking gay is bad. They are growing up comfortable with it. And they think people that are not comfortable with it are themselves bad and/or backward. So to them, Christians that take the stance we do are NOT showing God's love, are NOT loving, but backwards, hateful people.

              I'm not giving answers here - and I'm not actually asking you to give answers either. I'm just saying this is where things are going both in the church and in the world.

              So Buttigieg is not some warning of a vast political conspiracy to pervert faith, he is just the natural next step in the way things are going in the church and in our culture as regards LGB issues.


              Jim
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                The problem with that comment is that we all accept things the scripture does not allow at one point or another depending on how literally it is read or depending on how we've been taught to read it. Divorce is not allowed, except for infidelity. Some would say never. Women are not allowed to teach men. Or even speak in a church service. They are to wait till they get home and ask their husbands. When the Southern Baptist convention formed, it formed because entire congregations believed the Bible supported them holding slaves. In Paul's day some people thought eating meat offered to idols was clearly forbidden, and others thought their freedom in Christ gave them the right not to care about whether the meat had been offered to an idol.

                So he may have no pains of conscience, no aversion to it. There may be nothing at all in him condemning him.

                For a long time I used to think God would necessarily open the eyes of such a person if they were truly seeking him. But what I've come to realize over the years is that just isn't the case at all. Sometimes people never catch on to their sin but they still are following Christ as best they can. What does God do with people like that? Aren't we ALL to one extent or another people like that? So don't we hope it's God's mercy that wins here rather than God's judgement? Isn't that what CP's profession that he fully trusted in Christ to welcome him into heaven means? It doesn't mean CP does everything he believes is right and because of that Jesus will welcome him. It doesn't mean everything CP believes is right IS right an THAT is why Jesus will welcome him. But it does mean that Christ's work is sufficient in spite of where and how CP doesn't measure up and that Christs work on the cross cover's CP's sin - known and unknown, willful and accidental.


                Jim
                We're held accountable to that which we know is sin, and there isn't any debate in scripture that same sex behavior is sinful. To the contrary, it's heavily condemned with some of the Bible's harshest language. Buttigieg surely knows that because he's addressed the disconnect seen about his "marriage" and being a Christian directly (and he'd have to be living under a rock to not be familiar with the national debate on the subject). He hasn't, at this point, delved into scripture about this issue, likely because his church has a low view of scripture, and he knows he hasn't a leg to stand on.

                What are your thoughts about Joseph Kony? You've heard of him, right? He's the leader of a cult called the Lord's Resistance Army. He's a terrible person who has cruelly murdered and raped his way through Uganda, but he's deceived himself into believing that he's doing the Lord's will. That he is a prophet of God who is commanded by God to do the things that he's doing. Is he excused for his sin because he hasn't caught on to the fact that he's sinning. Certainly someone at some point has warned him that he has, that he's not following the teachings of Christ and the epistles. So, where is the crossing point? Instead of making excuses for Buttigieg, why not address his off behavior as Christians are commanded to do for one another?

                As far as I can tell, Cow Poke has demonstrated he's someone who has sincerely dedicated himself to the Lord. Who has a very high view of scripture, and the teachings of Christ and his apostles. Who doesn't celebrate, and champion for his particular favorite sinful behavior, but lines up his life to the standard we are called to, and repents when the habits of the old nature occasionally make him miss the mark. He's not perfect, but he's a mature Christian on the road to the perfection we're all called to, and that we will receive in our glorified state.


                As an aside, some of your other points need a little bit of work. There are at least two occasions in scripture where divorce is allowed (the second is in 1 Cor. 7). We have examples of female leaders and prophetesses in the New Testament including Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia, Chole, Euodia and Syntyche, and others that the Bible commends, so there is likely nuance to passages like 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Corinthians 14:35 that need to be understood that complicates the matter of female teachers, that's not to say that churches who don't allow female teachers are wrong, only that there's more to the subject than first glance if we are to interpret scripture by scripture. As Biblical scholars who've delved deeply into the issue of homosexuality in the Bible have pointed out, there is no such complication in scripture. Those issues that have been invented after the fact simply don't stand to scrutiny. You have to ignore what scripture says on the matter to harmonize a Christian lifestyle with homosexual behavior. And Southern Baptists weren't necessarily sinning for having slaves, they were sinning for their treatment of their slaves. The Bible allows for one to have slaves, though it's a push to say it supports it when you have passages like 1 Corinthians 7:21 which directs those under slavery to get out from under it if they can do so. And finally, Paul deals with the meat issue in 1 Corinthians 8. In that situation we had Christian brothers and sisters who were acting ignorantly. Buttigieg isn't acting ignorant.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  I don't think so. That's kind of a massively paranoid way of looking at this.


                  Jim
                  Yeah, I can see you're interested in a reasoned conversation.

                  There are a lot of gay people that have faith and they want to find a way of integrating the two.
                  Look at the phrase "gay pride", Jim.
                  First, like people do with so many other sins, they RENAME it to make it sound less offensive.
                  Like abortion is RENAMED "reproductive choice" or "Family Planning".
                  Then they add the word "PRIDE" because they want there to be no stigma or shame.

                  There are a number of major differences between homosexuality and other kinds of sexual immorality.

                  You don't find couples who are living in adultery coming to the Church and boasting of their adulterous situation. There's a sense of shame, as there should be.
                  I have two couples in our Church who are living together, and not married. They are embarrassed by it, and never try to rationalize it or justify it.
                  They CERTAINLY don't take PRIDE in their situation, and there is hope that they will make things right.

                  Why are you working so hard to rationalize homosexuality? Do you not believe it is sin?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    I don't think so. That's kind of a massively paranoid way of looking at this. I think it is simpler and far less political than that.

                    There are a lot of gay people that have faith and they want to find a way of integrating the two. And there are a lot of Christians and Christian denominations that have decided that what has been learned about why people are gay puts them in a position of feeling they need to accommodate them without demanding they change. And that along with a recognition of gay marriage culturally and in those churches has produced an environment where people are naturally becoming comfortable with expressing traditional Christian faith as gay people. And I think Buttigieg is just a natural consequence of those trends. That is why I do not doubt his sincerity, or his own personal conviction that he is a practicing Christian within the Episcopal Church.

                    You saw from the links posted from the diocese that he and his husband are fully recognized by that local church body and its government.

                    And I think this is how things are going. One thing you need to consider and seriously pray about is what are you going to do when a married gay couple with children shows up at your church looking for a place to worship and fellowship. It's going to happen.

                    And there is another thing to consider. Many of the youth of this country are not growing up thinking gay is bad. They are growing up comfortable with it. And they think people that are not comfortable with it are themselves bad and/or backward. So to them, Christians that take the stance we do are NOT showing God's love, are NOT loving, but backwards, hateful people.

                    I'm not giving answers here - and I'm not actually asking you to give answers either. I'm just saying this is where things are going both in the church and in the world.

                    So Buttigieg is not some warning of a vast political conspiracy to pervert faith, he is just the natural next step in the way things are going in the church and in our culture as regards LGB issues.


                    Jim
                    The ancient world was generally "comfortable" with homosexuality, pederasty, abortion, infanticide, the gruesome Roman circus, and confessing that Caesar was Lord. The early church welcomed everyone, but didn't waver in it's position on these issues. Rather, it suffered persecution for it's unwavering views, and eventually it won people over for it's stand on the truth.

                    There's an old saying that goes something like, "If you ever find yourself in a church where you're too comfortable, then you haven't found the right church." That doesn't mean we need to go the complete opposite way and look for a hateful fire and brimstone type places, but a good pastor loves his parishioners, and looks over his flock, and will help steer them away from the rocky cliffs.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Why are you working so hard to rationalize homosexuality? Do you not believe it is sin?
                      I see that the second question was already answered by you in a previous post. Which gives even more weight to the first question.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        Jim - CP doesnt base his confidence on what he has done. It is based on what Christ has done and the free gift given. It's like being confident your mom will have dinner for you when you get home. You didn't earn it, and you are not being boastful about yourself by telling someone dinner is waiting for you when you get home, but dinner will be there waiting for you nonetheless, because you are her son, and she is your mom.

                        Jim
                        Just because a mom forgives a sons behavior, doesn't make the son faultless or righteous, it makes him forgiven. I know, I know, it's just an analogy, and god, according to the belief of christians, in his forgiveness is going to give them a new and glorified nature, (he's going to make them faultless and righteous,) but if that were true, then god could have clothed them in that garb in the first place and this so called earthly crucible would make no sense.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Yeah, I can see you're interested in a reasoned conversation.



                          Look at the phrase "gay pride", Jim.
                          First, like people do with so many other sins, they RENAME it to make it sound less offensive.
                          Like abortion is RENAMED "reproductive choice" or "Family Planning".
                          Then they add the word "PRIDE" because they want there to be no stigma or shame.

                          There are a number of major differences between homosexuality and other kinds of sexual immorality.

                          You don't find couples who are living in adultery coming to the Church and boasting of their adulterous situation. There's a sense of shame, as there should be.
                          I have two couples in our Church who are living together, and not married. They are embarrassed by it, and never try to rationalize it or justify it.
                          They CERTAINLY don't take PRIDE in their situation, and there is hope that they will make things right.

                          Why are you working so hard to rationalize homosexuality? Do you not believe it is sin?
                          That last sentence is one reason it is hard to have discussions. There is always this underlying sense of imposing some paradigm on what I'm saying, and so people read into my words what simply isn't there.

                          That entire post was just talking about what 'is' without making any moral judgement of any kind on what 'is'. And my reason for writing it was to build the case for Buttigieg's embracing and openness about Christian faith to not be some sort of conspiracy to change christian faith for political reasons, but just the natural outcome of a trend towards acceptance of gay people both in society and in the church.'

                          In the world the trend is towards hedonism. In the church it's different - marriage and monagamy is how it is dealt with.

                          That doesn't solve the theological issues, what the scripture says about it, but it is a very different sort of thing. What is happening in churches is not the nude or half-nude nutcases parading through the streets dressed up like peacocks during 'gay pride' month. It isn't people seeking to force public expressions of sexuality on children or in public spaces. I think it is important to understand it is two different sort of things.



                          Jim
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            The ancient world was generally "comfortable" with homosexuality, pederasty, abortion, infanticide, the gruesome Roman circus, and confessing that Caesar was Lord. The early church welcomed everyone, but didn't waver in it's position on these issues. Rather, it suffered persecution for it's unwavering views, and eventually it won people over for it's stand on the truth.

                            There's an old saying that goes something like, "If you ever find yourself in a church where you're too comfortable, then you haven't found the right church." That doesn't mean we need to go the complete opposite way and look for a hateful fire and brimstone type places, but a good pastor loves his parishioners, and looks over his flock, and will help steer them away from the rocky cliffs.
                            And actually that fact is one of the arguments used to support the idea of acceptance in the church is that Paul is addressing these excessive perversions, not necessarily gay attraction itself (not something I can quite follow, but that is a basic summary of one of the arguments used)

                            But my point here has never been to try to argue what the correct stance in the church is on this issue. In Romans 1 and 2 it is hard to read any other way than to say it's sin. But my point has always been since I entered this thread to say Buttigieg is very likely sincere in his faith, that this is how things are going, and there is no reason to have spent all this time trying to paint him as somehow deceiving or lying about whether or not he genuinely believes he is a Christian and is seeking to live out what he believes are Christian morals. Or rather, that his gayness is not a factor that should be seen as a red flag over the potential reality of what he is saying about that.



                            Jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              And actually that fact is one of the arguments used to support the idea of acceptance in the church is that Paul is addressing these excessive perversions, not necessarily gay attraction itself (not something I can quite follow, but that is a basic summary of one of the arguments used)

                              But my point here has never been to try to argue what the correct stance in the church is on this issue. In Romans 1 and 2 it is hard to read any other way than to say it's sin. But my point has always been since I entered this thread to say Buttigieg is very likely sincere in his faith, that this is how things are going, and there is no reason to have spent all this time trying to paint him as somehow deceiving or lying about whether or not he genuinely believes he is a Christian and is seeking to live out what he believes are Christian morals. Or rather, that his gayness is not a factor that should be seen as a red flag over the potential reality of what he is saying about that.



                              Jim
                              Within certain limits, people are entitled to form their own opinions about what is right, proper, or acceptable.
                              People are also entitled to choose their own gods and invite others to consider the acceptability of those gods.
                              Where people find a given god unacceptable, they have the right to reject that god.
                              Where they make false declarations, whether for or against a particular god, people exceed their entitlements.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                And actually that fact is one of the arguments used to support the idea of acceptance in the church is that Paul is addressing these excessive perversions, not necessarily gay attraction itself (not something I can quite follow, but that is a basic summary of one of the arguments used)
                                What fact? I'm not sure I follow. Do you have a link to the argument?

                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                But my point here has never been to try to argue what the correct stance in the church is on this issue. In Romans 1 and 2 it is hard to read any other way than to say it's sin. But my point has always been since I entered this thread to say Buttigieg is very likely sincere in his faith, that this is how things are going, and there is no reason to have spent all this time trying to paint him as somehow deceiving or lying about whether or not he genuinely believes he is a Christian and is seeking to live out what he believes are Christian morals. Or rather, that his gayness is not a factor that should be seen as a red flag over the potential reality of what he is saying about that.
                                Ok, and? I mean there's only a few options open to someone who claims to be a Christian yet champions gay and transsexual agendas, is pro choice, and constantly drives the point home that his faith will in no way influence his politics (outside of broad stroke social gospel talking points like "be humble," "be nice to others," "take care of the poor"). 1.) Buttigieg knows what scripture says, but disagrees with the mainstream scholarship and orthodox teaching on these matters. 2.) Buttigieg knows what scripture says, but doesn't feel that scripture is authoritative, or is only authoritative in the most general of ways. 3.) Buttigieg is completely ignorant of what scripture says on these matters. 4.) Buttigieg doesn't care what scripture says on these matters.

                                Whether he sincerely considers himself a Christian or not is sorta moot. He's either lying or is in gross error. Either way, he's offered enough examples of anti-Christian behavior for fellow Christians to judge the sincerity of his confession, and by that, I don't necessarily mean the sincerity that he himself places in that confession, but sincerity as a synonym for validity. The guy who goes home and beats his wife every night might sincerely believe he's a Christian, and may even believe he has a God-given right to do so, but I, as a fellow Christian, have the right to question the sincerity the validity of his walk with Christ if he's behaving in a way that's so contradictory to Christian faith. Same with Trump. He claims to have made Jesus Lord, but his actions don't come across as someone who really believes he's to love his enemies, to bless those who curse him, and to pray for those who abuse him.

                                Comment

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