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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Jesus had a tendency to introduce modifications or even outright contradictions of OT law when it needed a bit of tweaking (which I think Tekton pointed out). So - when he didn't speak in contradiction of OT law, I figure he was content to let it stand.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Jesus had a tendency to introduce modifications or even outright contradictions of OT law when it needed a bit of tweaking (which I think Tekton pointed out). So - when he didn't speak in contradiction of OT law, I figure he was content to let it stand.
      Out of curiosity - why not make the assumption that he believed the other things he put forward - such as "love one another" being the highest law would be interpreted to mean that he didn't think much of OT laws that undermined any form of love for one another - including proscriptions against homosexuality?


      Just to be clear, this is a rhetorical question about the logic of your assumption. First, I don't do "what the bible means" discussions because I find them pointless. As history has shown, the right selection and omission of verses can be used to support/attack almost any position - and I don't accept the bible as an authority on pretty much anything. Second, I have very little doubt that Jesus would have been any less homophobic than the rest of the Jewish men (and women?) of that culture in that age - so I suspect if he had spoken out about homosexuality, he would have been against it.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Jesus had a tendency to introduce modifications or even outright contradictions of OT law when it needed a bit of tweaking (which I think Tekton pointed out). So - when he didn't speak in contradiction of OT law, I figure he was content to let it stand.
        And many of us "Christians" call ourselves "New Testament Christians" because we are Christ followers, and we live under a whole new system, Praise God!
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          And many of us "Christians" call ourselves "New Testament Christians" because we are Christ followers, and we live under a whole new system, Praise God!
          I always find it interesting that an eternal, unchanging, omniscient being seemed to have a need to create an "all new system" with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth...
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Out of curiosity - why not make the assumption that he believed the other things he put forward - such as "love one another" being the highest law would be interpreted to mean that he didn't think much of OT laws that undermined any form of love for one another - including proscriptions against homosexuality?
            Well, there's the problem that we have the rest of the New Testament, not just the Gospels, and Paul (specifically) would have to be seen as countermanding these "highest laws". There are clear prohibitions about a number of other things in the New Testament that it wouldn't make sense to say, "oh, we can ignore those, because Jesus...."
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I always find it interesting that an eternal, unchanging, omniscient being seemed to have a need to create an "all new system" with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth...
              Actually, it's an extension of the old system, but Jesus became the sacrifice once and for all, instead of "rolling over" the sins to the next year and waiting for the Day of Atonement. It's all part of that "It is Finished" thing Jesus said from the Cross.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                And many of us "Christians" call ourselves "New Testament Christians" because we are Christ followers, and we live under a whole new system, Praise God!
                You've abandoned YAHWEH?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Actually, it's an extension of the old system, but Jesus became the sacrifice once and for all, instead of "rolling over" the sins to the next year and waiting for the Day of Atonement. It's all part of that "It is Finished" thing Jesus said from the Cross.
                  I think he also said "father, why have you forsaken me?"

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                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    I think he also said "father, why have you forsaken me?"
                    Nice try, but
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      You've abandoned YAHWEH?
                      You just love being wrong, don't you, JimmyKins?
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • OK, this part....

                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Just to be clear, this is a rhetorical question about the logic of your assumption. First, I don't do "what the bible means" discussions because I find them pointless.
                        But you kinda are*!

                        As history has shown, the right selection and omission of verses can be used to support/attack almost any position - and I don't accept the bible as an authority on pretty much anything. Second, I have very little doubt that Jesus would have been any less homophobic than the rest of the Jewish men (and women?) of that culture in that age - so I suspect if he had spoken out about homosexuality, he would have been against it.
                        Interesting. The fact that JimL amen'd this would seem to me to be an indication that he didn't really understand what you were saying. I do note, however, your use of "homophobic" as a pejorative to those of us who aren't really "phobic" at all, but just believe something is wrong. Out of curiosity - does it make you feel better to use this term to somehow make us sound like really bad people?

                        I've missed you, Carpe.


                        *not really - I'm kidding.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Well, there's the problem that we have the rest of the New Testament, not just the Gospels, and Paul (specifically) would have to be seen as countermanding these "highest laws". There are clear prohibitions about a number of other things in the New Testament that it wouldn't make sense to say, "oh, we can ignore those, because Jesus...."
                          So that doesn't really have much to do with what I observed.

                          As for the rest - you're (presumably) taking it from the perspective that "it's all god's word.". I take it as a historical document, recognizing that the later letters were written at least a couple decades after Jesus died, allowing plenty of time for communities to begin interpreting and amending what Jesus actually thought, and plenty of opportunities for charismatic preachers like Paul) to insert their own perspective. Indeed, we don't really have any direct record of what Jesus actually taught; what we have is the writings of the community that sprang up after his death many years after that death - so we are looking at Jesus' teachings through their eyes.

                          Presumably, you believe there is an all-powerful being that is speaking through all of that so it is all "the truth." Since I do not share a belief in such a being, I treat them as simple historical documents and hold them to the same standards I believe all historical documents ought to be held.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I always find it interesting that an eternal, unchanging, omniscient being seemed to have a need to create an "all new system" with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth...
                            With regard to your first question, I'll mull it over for a while - I'd rather give a considered response than an "off the top of the head" response at 3:30 am.
                            This question is pre-mulled (and my answer could offend many). The Old Law came out of dickering/compromise. The New Law didn't - it's a from the top command (on a take it or leave it basis). Both Old Testament and New Testament records state that the Old Law was deficient (and in the NT, the OT law is deemed deficient on more than one count ... some of it deemed by God himself to be bad).
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Actually, it's an extension of the old system, but Jesus became the sacrifice once and for all, instead of "rolling over" the sins to the next year and waiting for the Day of Atonement. It's all part of that "It is Finished" thing Jesus said from the Cross.
                              That is a lot of imposing a theology on the texts... IMO
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                That is a whole lot of imposing a theology on the text...
                                It is.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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