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Mayor Pete Attacks Trump's Faith...

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    - pointing to what churches accept as moral won't gain any traction in a debate where Biblical teaching is pivotal.
    You mean “biblical teaching” according to the interpretation of what the bible has to say. This has been a ‘bone of contention’ throughout Christian history e.g. the European wars of religion waged in Europe in the 16th, 17th and early 18th century killing millions. All in the name of scriptural correctness.

    Church morality is too often informed by social mores and a quest for relevance and status in the halls of academe, and secular society.
    Church morality has ALWAYS been informed by the social mores of the day and adapted accordingly, e.g. the role of women or how Christian slaveholders used scripture to justify slavery, witch-killing and currently the civil rights (or lack thereof) of LGBT people. Re the last, the Episcopal Church has worked it out, the Evangelicals still have a way to go.
    Last edited by Tassman; 06-22-2019, 02:58 AM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Church morality has ALWAYS been informed by the social mores of the day and adapted accordingly
      Quite so. That's why its decisions are irrelevant to Christians - as witness the Hong Kong protest rallies. Church hierarchies sitting on the thumbs and wanting their congregations to do the same. Congregations finding church hierarchies' will irrelevant, and acting as a protective umbrella for protestors.

      And yes - your mention of the third plague (1/ black death, 2/syphillus, 3/religious warring) to ravage Europe during the 16th to the early 18th centuries is a good summation of why Christians DON'T much take the Churches' edicts seriously.
      Last edited by tabibito; 06-22-2019, 04:24 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        So, you are accusing me of being a liar.
        Is that what you want to call it?
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Of course "someone who is a member of a christian church is a self proclaimed christian whether he speaks the specific words you want to hear or not". It just doesn't fit with CP's narrative, that's all.
          Nor does it fit with your goofy "Buttigieg himself claimed to be a practicing Christian" false narrative. Are you abandoning that claim?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post


            Re the last, the Episcopal Church has worked it out, the Evangelicals still have a way to go.
            As previously noted considering that a significant percentage of Episcopalians consider themselves to be evangelical your continued insistence on treating them separately makes no sense.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Of course "someone who is a member of a christian church is a self proclaimed christian whether he speaks the specific words you want to hear or not". It just doesn't fit with CP's narrative, that's all.
              Um, no. I've known more than one member of a church who were definitely not Christian and weren't even a theist and made it clear. They went solely to accompany their spouse[1].

              Moreover, the father of a couple of my friends back in the 80s only started attending church to make business connections and because he planned on running for office[2].







              1. Can't remember which of our presidents during the 19th cent. did that (he was agnostic or maybe a deist) and would even leave and go out front to have a smoke or something when they took communion.

              2 He ran for county commission but was creamed after getting a DUI and quit attending church right after the election. Both his oldest son and middle daughter said that while growing up their father would regularly mock religion so they were surprised when he started accompanying them to church -- for the short while he did.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Well, the Episcopal Church clearly considers your views on “actual teaching of the New Testament” about homosexuality to be wrong. As do the majority of Christian’s in the US according to Pew Research.
                At least you've stopped erroneously referring to it as the "Episcopalian Church".
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  At least you've stopped erroneously referring to it as the "Episcopalian Church".
                  That's right. It should be "the Church of the Episcopalians"


                  Or maybe, "The Episcopalian's Church"
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    That's right. It should be "the Church of the Episcopalians"


                    Or maybe, "The Episcopalian's Church"
                    How bout we let them call it what they want to call it.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      How bout we let them call it what they want to call it.
                      Nah...more fun to tell them what it should be called...



                      Maybe "St. Episcopalianist du Monde"
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        As previously noted considering that a significant percentage of Episcopalians consider themselves to be evangelical your continued insistence on treating them separately makes no sense.
                        They treat themselves separately. Episcopalians usually attend the Episcopal church which is most compatible with their own belief system.

                        http://www.crivoice.org/lowhighchurch.html
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Um, no. I've known more than one member of a church who were definitely not Christian and weren't even a theist and made it clear. They went solely to accompany their spouse
                          True of some people in every denomination no doubt. But such people are not likely to speak of their religion in the same terms as Buttigieg: E.g.:

                          "My understanding of my faith is that – through a Christian framework – part of what we are called to do is to lay down our own self-interests, after the model of divinity that comes into this world in the form of Christ and lays down his life. And in order to do that, you have to care about something or someone more than yourself. So much of the New Testament is about love. The idea that God is love. The idea that the greatest of these faith hope and love is love. ...

                          https://www.npr.org/2019/05/20/72513...iage-and-faith
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Norrin Radd (post 1578) and more strongly, CowPoke (post 1579), has pointed to a couple of the implications.

                            Churches are quite happy, in the main to accept as Christian, or at least as members of the church, any number of subsets of sinner. They will even accept such people in ordained positions; albeit a more restricted range applies.

                            Homosexuality is volubly declared incompatible with Christianity ... not so much other sins. But ...

                            it is not singled out as a particularly different sin in the Bible. A congregation which accepts as members, people who openly and even unashamedly engage in other sins has no grounds for excluding people who engage in homosexual relationships. Which is to say ... the line in the sand gets drawn in the wrong place. As things stand, hypocrisy on this issue is inescapable.
                            it is lumped together with adultery and other sexual sins. I don't see it as any different.

                            1 Corinthians 6:9
                            Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

                            and with liars

                            1 Timothy 1:10
                            the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              True of some people in every denomination no doubt. But such people are not likely to speak of their religion in the same terms as Buttigieg: E.g.:

                              "My understanding of my faith is that – through a Christian framework – part of what we are called to do is to lay down our own self-interests, after the model of divinity that comes into this world in the form of Christ and lays down his life. And in order to do that, you have to care about something or someone more than yourself. So much of the New Testament is about love. The idea that God is love. The idea that the greatest of these faith hope and love is love. ...

                              https://www.npr.org/2019/05/20/72513...iage-and-faith
                              Which in NO way backs up your nutty assertion that he claimed, himself, to be a "practicing Christian". How bout just abandoning that claim, as you already keep dodging it?
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Which in NO way backs up your nutty assertion that he claimed, himself, to be a "practicing Christian". How bout just abandoning that claim, as you already keep dodging it?
                                He claims to be a christian, he claims to be a member of a christian church. How bout you stop being a nit picker and accept the facts.

                                Comment

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